Burnt Hands Perspective
This is a raw and unfiltered look into the pu$$ification and state of the restaurant industry as a whole, powered by longtime friends Chef/Owner Antonio Caruana and former bartender turned News Anchor/TV Host Kristen Crowley.
Representing all aspects of the industry from the front to the back of the house we will dig into the juiciest stories and pull from decades of experience in one of the sexiest and most exciting industries in the world...the food and beverage industry.
From international chefs, sommeliers, industry pros, and so much more, this show will cover all of it without a filter. You turn up the volume; we'll turn up the heat.
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Burnt Hands Perspective
Ep 18 - Breaking Barriers and Uncorking Opportunity for Women in the Wine Industry - Female Sommeliers
This episode features an inspiring conversation about women in the wine industry, sharing personal stories and experiences from the guests as they navigate a male-dominated field. The panel discusses challenges such as gender bias, pay discrepancies, and the importance of mentorship while emphasizing the growth and empowerment of women in wine.
• Personal journeys of the panelists into the wine industry
• Discussion on gender bias and pay disparities in wine professions
• Emphasis on the importance of mentorship and community
• Calls to action for younger generations to join the wine industry
• Insights on the evolving landscape for women in wine
Don't forget you can tip your "servers" here to keep the show going: https://www.buzzsprout.com/2388325/support
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The latest episode takes listeners on a journey into the world of wine, focusing on the remarkable women breaking barriers and leading with passion and resilience.
In this episode, Liana Biscotti, Kiera Hill, Bethany Morris, and KC share their unique experiences and paths in an industry where women have historically been underrepresented.
As we dive into their stories, we learn about the serendipitous paths that led these women into the wine industry. From volunteering at culinary festivals to managing fine dining establishments, their journeys reveal how passion and perseverance can unlock new opportunities.
The podcast sheds light on the evolving landscape of the wine industry, particularly in terms of gender equity. Our guests candidly discuss the challenges they have faced, from navigating gender bias to overcoming societal expectations. The conversation highlights the significant progress made in recent years, aided by cultural shifts and media representations, such as the "Somm" documentary, which brought increased visibility and interest to the profession. Despite the progress, challenges remain, and the importance of a supportive community is emphasized as essential for continued growth.
The episode also explores the dynamic world of wine and culinary collaboration, highlighting the synergy between chefs and sommeliers. The thrill of creating unique dining experiences by pairing food and wine is a testament to the creativity and passion that drives these women. Their stories of experimentation with flavors and the satisfaction of seeing diners' reactions reveal the artistry involved in this profession. Empowering young women to enter the field and pursue their passions with purpose is a key takeaway, emphasizing the need for continued support and recognition.
As we conclude the episode, the importance of community and accessibility in the wine industry is highlighted. The path to becoming a sommelier often involves self-study and real-world experience, underscoring the
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*The views and opinions on this show are meant for entertainment purposes only. They do not reflect the views of our sponsors. We are not here to babysit your feelings, if you are a true industry pro, you will know that what we say is meant to make you laugh and have a great time. If you don't get that, this is not the podcast for you. You've been warned. Enjoy the ride!
We are rolling, kristen, we are rolling, we are here. Here we are Cheers. So listen to this Five seconds of just glory here. I'm going to say this right now, right away we are surrounded, I'm surrounded, I'm surrounded by freaking, powerful women right now.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you love it I love it.
Speaker 1:I'm surrounded, so this is the deal here we have Leanna Biscotti from Glass Light, cara Cara Hill correct from Vino Culture, your shop. Bethany Morris, here from Luce Secundo wine director Legend the myth. It's not a myth, actually, she's right here, she's here, she's going home, that's okay. And then, of course, we have Casey in the place to be, and little old me, I know, tony, you're just surrounded by women today. That's it right, yeah.
Speaker 2:We thought it would be powerful because when we talked about this show, we wanted to have diversity and we wanted to have a couple episodes where it was really all women in this business, who don't represent the majority in a lot of these positions. So this is our first all-female panel, right? Well, aside from him, it is. I mean panel. You are the panel. He's just a fixture here now.
Speaker 1:That's right. He just has to be here. I just talk.
Speaker 2:He's grandfathered in, he's stuck with us, it's okay.
Speaker 1:Bethany, what did you pour? First of all, let's get to this.
Speaker 4:Oh yeah, breakfast wine actually Breakfast. Okay, most psalms like to start their day with bubbles if they're not working. So this is actually Cata Bosco. It actually an Italian sparkling wine made in the same way as champagne, and it's phenomenal, it's beautiful, it's a phenomenal start to the day.
Speaker 1:It's going to be a good conversation. So what a lot of people don't realize and what I'm so thrilled about all the time is that I was actually able I'm lucky enough to be able to summon up three of what I consider with all my looks and studies and research, because I'm in the industry. Obviously, I'm always researching my industry at all levels, whether it be wine, food, uh, booze drinks, whiskey, whatever, whatever the subject may be, and I have three.
Speaker 1:I have the pleasure of having three of the most valuable assets to the wine community in virginia yes, and and I think that anybody who doesn't understand that or doesn't understand the wine um quality here in Virginia, they just don't get it. They don't get it Because the first thing that comes with learning about wines firstly, of course, obviously is a palate and the understanding of wine and the passion to go do it. That's the easy part, right, that's the baseline.
Speaker 4:No.
Speaker 1:No, it's not easy. What gets harder, though what gets harder is the maintenance yes. What gets harder, though. What gets harder is the maintenance yes, maintaining that, maintaining that striving. While you guys all came up and did the thing and went and got to where you are, there's also a huge wave of people behind you. We call that competition right. So it happens in the chef world as well, where we work, we study, we play, and then we get to where we are. You have a choice You're either going to be comfortable where you are or you're going to continue to fucking move forward right and set the standard. So doing that as a woman in today's industry with the wine is tell me about it. Tell me, bethany, how you feel about it. Where do you stand on this whole thing? Just give me a little background to where you came from. How did you get to where you are? Where are you sitting now? And then we'll move on, and I'm just really interested in hearing this, and I think everybody else is.
Speaker 4:Yeah, so I've been a sommelier. I passed my first exam in 2012. It was an accident. Actually. Never thought I was going to end up being a sommelier. I was actually an assistant manager of a fine dining jazz club. It was in Virginia Beach and there was a girl who actually was running the wine program at the time. She was like a military brat and she had been traveling. Her parents were high up in the military. She actually went to a lot of banquets and drank a lot of wine. She was very young and she's very talented, but she didn't show up for work. One day she was supposed to take this first level psalm exam and there was no one to take it. So the owner was like bethany, you should do it.
Speaker 4:I was like I I have not studied for this at all like I'm running people, not wine.
Speaker 1:So, uh, he's like it's fine, at least you can get the experience somebody gets so the test, the test was that day and she didn't show it was the next week. Oh, the next week, okay, so you had.
Speaker 4:So I had a week to study. I had grown up in the industry, like I've been in restaurants since I was 17 and so I've been around wine, um, but I hadn't really like studied it as a career. I was used to waiting tables and running the floor. So coming into, like specifically, wine, it was like what are we doing here?
Speaker 1:So the best part about that now that you're saying that, for anybody who's been here or who's even been here the best thing about Bethany when you're working is you are geared on wine. That's obviously the deal, but you always revert back too and you can't stop it. There's no wine to be served. She's running like a waitstaff or a SA or a manager or a host or hostess.
Speaker 4:I can't sit still.
Speaker 1:You can't sit still but that shows that's where you came from. It's obviously ingrained in you to continue to do that, so I didn't mean to interrupt.
Speaker 4:Go ahead. No, you're fine. And then I actually got the book. I studied as best I cram, studied. I was up all night some nights and then I was like, all right, how hard could this be? And then we get into the first two days. There's two days of lectures when you're taking the introductory and then they give you a test there. No tasting aspect to it, there's just a written exam. And I was like, all right, they told me that this was going to be on the test, filled it out, lo and behold, it passed and I was like, whoa, okay, this is cool.
Speaker 4:And there was this. Everybody was drinking champagne at the end and they all call your name. And then the people are embarrassed if they don't call your name and it's just this whole weird ordeal. But you actually get to like meet a lot of people in the industry or people who are passionate about wine and I think at that celebratory moment we actually went to Eurasia afterwards and drank a ton of wine and in celebration and um, after that I was like this is a really cool experience. I got kind of hooked on everybody getting excited about it and the passion for it and I was like that's the direction I want to go and then it just fueled you.
Speaker 1:Now you have the fuel and now I was like this sounds way better than you know doing dishes A little bit yeah, so 12 years later. It's a little strategic in some way. So, with all that being said, you went on, you carried on, you did the level two, you kept going, and now, here you are, directing this program, which is amazing.
Speaker 4:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And just got a Wine Spectator Award. This is your second one outside of here, is that right?
Speaker 4:It is my third. Third.
Speaker 1:So it's your third one. So you definitely have the experience and obviously your passion for it shows and it's without a question. So we'll get more to that in a minute, but let's hear what your story is.
Speaker 5:Kira, go for it. Well, I got into wine at the early age of 18, maybe 19, 19. I went to college at Florida International University and it's number six school in the world, or at least was at the time for hospitality. I was not studying that, but all my friends were, and so I got to volunteer at South Beach Food and Wine Festival and Gastora Fest and work all these events and my friends were studying to become chefs and restaurateurs and hoteliers, and so on the weekends, instead of going to frat parties, we would go to someone's house and do a five-course food and wine pairing dinner just to practice, you had classy, classy underage drinking.
Speaker 3:Good, okay, wow, we did it very differently Wow.
Speaker 4:Boone's Farm was that wine?
Speaker 1:Yeah, differently, wow, was that wine? Yeah, no, boone's farm, that wasn't our generation. Sorry, we're older.
Speaker 5:Okay, it's fine, it was our wine. Yep, so yeah, I um, I got into really interesting wines from all around the world, um, and interesting foods from all around the world. My friends were from anywhere from ghana to switzerland to curacao, trinidad and Tobago, latin America, china.
Speaker 1:Russia, everywhere.
Speaker 5:And so I was definitely in the minority, and so I got to experience food from all over the world and it really expanded my palate. And so at the time I was working fine dining as well and I learned, oh, I can make a lot more money if I know how to recommend wines and talk about wines more.
Speaker 1:Say that louder for the people in the back please, those people in the back who don't realize that.
Speaker 5:Yes, if you don't just take orders, if you know how to recommend wines and create that experience, it does make you a lot more money as a server at the time. And then I moved up to DC when I had just turned 21. And so I got a job as a cashier at a wine store total wine so. But I was still asking questions like what really is the difference between you know Bordeaux and Brunello? You know very different things, and so I hadn't really started studying anything. It was really just all enjoyment at that time and I fell in love with wine and then that helped me get on the sales team. So they quickly realized I was passionate about wine, even if I didn't know anything really about it, and so they had me recommending wines on the tasting tables and on the floors and I just turned 21. And then I'm starting to host these wine tasting events and classes. I still don't know anything about it. Meanwhile I'm getting my degree in economic development of Latin America so this was not my career choice at all and end up finishing the degree, they offered me a management position at the time of their number one wine store in the US and ran their whole education program, traveled to multiple different states training incoming managers about wine.
Speaker 5:At this point, like I know my stuff, I studied a lot and really fell in love with wine education, but still it was just a job to pay my pay off, my student loans, until I get my real job in my real industry, what I paid a lot of money for my career and my uh, my degree and turns out I didn't want to step behind a desk and do research and um. So I ended up giving that all up and I was like I really just love this whole wine thing and education and working in restaurants and the hospitality industry and creating those aha moments for people. And so I was in Guatemala at the time and two weeks in, I'm like I don't want to do this at all. I want to do this one thing. So I came back early and signed up to take my Somali exam. I took level one and level two back to back in the same weekend and, yeah, six months later passed the test, something I didn't know I was even interested in, and the rest is kind of history.
Speaker 1:Crushing it, crushing it. That's a great story, man, what you got Very different.
Speaker 3:That's so awesome.
Speaker 1:I just learned so much about you.
Speaker 3:I actually, you know, I never really thought that wine was going to be my career either. I don't think that anybody just kind of I think very few people set out and they're like wine is what I'm doing. I was restaurant my whole life. I've never done anything else. I started working in restaurants when I was 15. I've worked in sports bars and tequila bars and beer bars and I've done pretty much everything. And when I and I've always kind of been around wine, I've always liked it. I went to university of South Carolina and studied Spanish and Latin American studies, cause I wanted to learn about culture, like I wanted to learn about different cultures. And for me, when I found wine, I was like, oh, that's a such a cool way to learn about culture, cause it's not just wine that you're learning about.
Speaker 1:You're learning about geology, climate, food. You're learning about so much when you say that because when I was studying for my level one thing, I was so intrigued by things I was learning outside of the wine right I'm learning about little sayings in life, like a man is worth his salt and where those expressions came from from the roman colonies paying people with salt via the wine trade.
Speaker 1:There were so many things I've learned from it. You know there was so many little, like you said, tidbits of stuff that you're learning that doesn't really even pertain to wine but it was things you knew all your life, but it somehow does.
Speaker 3:I didn't know it came from wine.
Speaker 1:I mean, it's crazy.
Speaker 3:Exactly. And so when I started at Burton Baldwin in 2018, I think somewhere around there and the manager at the time was like, leanna, why don't you have your sommelier? Like, why don't you have this yet?
Speaker 4:And I was like I don't know, I just don't have it.
Speaker 1:And he's like well, you should go for it just try it, and that was a good restaurant to get that.
Speaker 3:Really great because I mean Burden Baldwin beautiful restaurant really high exposure to very high quality, very high end wine.
Speaker 3:So you get to see those first growth Bordeaux's, you get to see those like aging moments and really have access to a lot of wine that a lot of people don't have access to. So I was really really lucky in that particular situation but I got my level one and then two months later I got my level one and then two months later I got my level two and waited a few years and then finally I was like you know what, I'm just gonna try WSET and see what it is and see how I like it. And WSET three took me like two months and I hopefully I'm gonna do my French wine scholar next. But it's just always. There's just so much to learn and I'm somebody who, if you're not learning, you're not growing and, like you were saying earlier, you get stagnant and you start losing it and you start losing that passion and so, being surrounded by wine, which is so ever-changing, you're constantly growing because you're constantly growing and surrounded by wine drinkers and wine, you know veyers and wine enthusiasts.
Speaker 3:And you can learn from everybody that you meet and even if they, you know, might not have the certifications that you do like, you can learn from anybody Because you know, my old boss lived in Champaign. He grew up in Champaign. Of course I'm going to learn something from him. I grew up in Chesapeake, chesapeake.
Speaker 2:There you go. Definitely not the same.
Speaker 1:Well, you know the funny thing is there's so much about wine to know like you guys you understand, and you just said it there's so much to learn about it that it's almost discouraging sometimes for someone like me. I went and got my level one just to have it. Here I am with my little pin on feeling cool, right, but there's so much to learn that it's it's almost intimidating to the point where, if it's not your chosen profession, you almost lose focus on it because it's such. It's like looking over the horizon saying the earth is round or it's flat, you don't really know. It is so much out there and and that's that's the part of wine that is so impressive to me and people who study it, gain from it and grow like you guys do is just crazy to me. It's, it's amazing what? What do you guys think about? As far as, like um we were talking about a minute ago, and everybody's path is different but kind of the same, it all comes around diversity comes around your passion for it comes how you were introduced to it. So something was said earlier too about how it's not really. It's not a profession you go after, right Me myself.
Speaker 1:I never thought I'd be into wine. I fell into wine, quite by mistake as well. No-transcript deep. I went there about three, three years, maybe something like that. Then, of course, I got back in the kitchen because I was, at the time, way too young for that type of responsibility, way too young for those numbers, way too young to understand what it meant to restauranteurs who are counting on me. I'd rather be surfing than putting in my numbers before noon. You know what I mean. So there was a lot of problems I had with it, understanding it, and now that I'm older, looking back, I realize the importance of this. I mean the importance of a good wine rep or a good salesperson or purveyor or a or a psalm in a restaurant.
Speaker 4:It's fucking huge yeah, shout out to all the wine reps that help us out, because they are the unsung heroes that keep us straight sometimes. Yeah yeah, no, and they're some of the most knowledgeable people in the industry as well yeah this is what they do every day just alongside us. They don't have a pin, but some of them do. But they're incredible people to work with or they can break you as a sum and you're like my event was counting on you. Yeah true, where did the delivery go?
Speaker 1:Yeah, or why is this not my delivery? Yeah right, yep, no doubt. So what do you feel, bethany, about the is there? I know there is, but what's with the being a woman in this industry is is are you comfortable? Is it a comfortable place? Has the wine world accepted women to your guys's level of knowledge in it, or do you feel that there's still a struggle with that as far as having to work through that, push through that envelope or break through that glass? If you will, you know what I mean.
Speaker 4:or yeah, this is a really complicated subject for us.
Speaker 1:I think it's. It's a great one, though it's a great subject to talk about.
Speaker 4:Um, I I feel honored to be on the panel for it, because we've lived and breathed this, I think, every day since we chose wine, or wine chose us, as the story goes um. But I would say, being a female in the industry, we've we are very blessed in our generation a little bit. There has been a lot more acceptance and growth for women in wine. There's forums, there's organizations. Now there is a lot more platform for women in wine. I think that's happened in the last 10 years specifically in our field, but it's always been a conversation around a boys club being a song.
Speaker 4:It's definitely been more of a man's world, even as a wine rep, and I would say there was a big shift of that right around COVID, when there was there was actually an article that came out in New York Times about it. There was a little bit of controversy and scandal that came out in New York Times about it. There was a little bit of controversy and scandal that came out um, but there was also kind of this realization of like, okay, these women are actually some of the most educated because you have to like, be tough, put yourself out there, take a lot of criticism, oh, you don't know anything. How could you like and if you're, I've got it a lot myself of like, oh, that's really cute, they let you do that and it's like sorry triggered much I think it's really interesting because is that?
Speaker 1:more the men saying that to you, you feel, or women say it too I think it's people at a table.
Speaker 4:There's more of and I would say it comes from more of a lack of knowledge of what we do combined with what they've seen in the media, so it can be just misinformation a lot of times. We usually try to hospitably skip over it and get back to the subject of wine a lot of times or I do specifically myself but I would say that there is this kind of there is a little mystery to what we do as a career. But there's also a big documentary that came out in 13 called Psalm, which kind of put a platform for what Psalms do as a career out. And it was all men in this movie and it was like oh my gosh. And there was this huge jump to sommiers being in the limelight and everybody started wanting to go pass an exam. There were people from djs to people from like anywhere not related to restaurants.
Speaker 4:People were jumping in on this sommier train jumping the trend right yeah, and wine is always about trends honestly comes and goes um, but I think there was just this like huge influx of sommeliers and the court ended up moving towards the situation of like okay, we really want to focus on the people and change the exam forum to focus on people who are actually studying wine and also towards the format of people who are in restaurants. I think that was more of a pillar they took. Cms took more of this approach to it's geared towards people who are actually running programs and more of the exams came about that. And I would say there was this big flip and influx of psalms into the market there. Every restaurant had a psalm at one point, whether they were a hipster psalm or the very polished. Everyone had to have like this like media presence of who they were as a psalm and I think that sounds like a chef world.
Speaker 4:Yeah, it was like food, it just kind of blew up and it bubbled.
Speaker 1:Put on a leather apron and all of a sudden you've got five Michelin stars.
Speaker 4:Yeah, and there was a big conversation about with closer to COVID and this is a kind of a touchy subject with, I would say, the article that came out. It's like there was this whole big New York Times article that came out on the upper echelon of the mega songs. I like to call them, or like the big, like old guard of sommeliers who, um, were kind of using their platform to to, uh, take advantage, take advantage of people and, let's be honest, that was most that was men yeah, it was all, men it was all men, so so the old guard is the men.
Speaker 1:That's what we're talking about. Is the women coming up under underneath them?
Speaker 4:and there was this article that was put out saying that females were, like, very excited, and it's not even pertaining to one sex. It's like you want to be around these master psalms because once you get up into higher credentials, you have to be mentored by one. You need to have somebody in your corner to pass an exam. That's like 6% passing rate, and so you're trying to. When you have a bunch of these SOMs that now flooded the market in every town, they're making a huge amount of money off of these. Exams are not cheap by any means, I mean, and they're all self-paid and all of our For a reason.
Speaker 4:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we've had a chance of doing it again. Yeah, pretty much.
Speaker 4:And there was this like everybody wanted to get a credential. It gave them like some sort of platform now, and I think there was this like huge push from a lot of people to get in tasting groups. So there's always good and bad that comes out of situations like this. But at the end of the day, there was a lot of females who came out and spoke about the fact that they were excited to go and meet these master psalms. They were excited to be under some sort of mentorship, and then it was flipped to where they felt like they were powerless unless they were being taken advantage of in some regard. Now that's how the article came out.
Speaker 4:This is what I read. This is, uh, some personal experience. I've gone through with some of the people mentioned, um, but I don't. I don't think that I've ever been somebody. I think it goes back for me where they always said don't sleep with somebody you work with in a restaurant. This is like real restaurant talk right here. It's like don't sleep with somebody you you work with, and so it's like I've always been the kind of the person of like I want to keep that outside of, out of work, and so I've never gotten like the only people I think I would get celebrity star shock over was, like particular winemakers, that I find their product to be incredible, but other than that, it's just people at the end of the day that we're working with, and they were somewhere in my journey along the way and maybe I just kept trailing on, so I'm going to say you know?
Speaker 1:you never bit, you never bit the, you never took the bait.
Speaker 2:You never dipped your pen.
Speaker 1:Yes, what Dipped your pen in a Cody ink. What about you on the retail level? So you're in the store, you're doing your thing, which is awesome, well-known. Everybody knows that downtown. Do you feel the same thing when you get a lot of male customers coming in to rely on you? Talk about that.
Speaker 5:Yeah, I think that my first experience in the retail world getting discriminated based on my sex was a co-worker who we we became friends later, but this very old French man and um. So at one point I'm like stocking wine and I broke. Um, I broke something and it shattered all over the place and I'm cleaning up and he comes up to me and he puts his hand on his apron and was like what are you doing? And I was like I'm cleaning up apparently I'm not very good at this whole wine thing, but I'm good at cleaning and he goes maybe you should stick with what you know best. And I was just like this very much, like oh, okay, okay, yikes, and you know we'd make comments regularly about like well, what do you know? You're a woman and you know, so I like really like that was the first time being so, like, blatantly obvious.
Speaker 1:And what year was this?
Speaker 5:Oh, this was. I mean this was close to 18, 19 years ago, so this is a long time ago.
Speaker 1:Well, at least there's that excuse. It was still maybe a little longer. Maybe it was a tail end of that.
Speaker 5:Yeah, this was way before Me Too, or anything like this. This is not a time of the year where you can like or a time of the season that you could go and make a complaint about something like this, so you just suck it up and grin and bear it and like work harder and work harder, and that's. I think our superpower is. Um, if we grew up in the industry before me too, you did learn to grind.
Speaker 5:You just learned to work harder, hustle more and prove everyone and became the superpower. I think so, um, you know, and we, and we got that benefit from the people who came before us, so it gets passed down. So I think, when I was younger and I was, you know, 24 managing a wine store and every single employee was, um, older than me, and the customers would come in and they'd be like, uh, can I, can I speak to the manager? I'm like that's me. Well, what about that guy over there? And even, you know, point to the guy with the white hair and the apron and stuff like this.
Speaker 5:It was like yeah, yeah, I just tired him. Yeah, I'm training him right now, so you know it's. It took a while for me to get taken seriously.
Speaker 1:Is that a woman thing or is that an age thing? Both yeah, yeah, and I think yeah yeah, and now.
Speaker 5:I am well beyond my 20s, so I don't think people say those things as much anymore. Yeah, and now it's. I think there's a lot more curiosity. The movie yeah Psalm that came out really struck a lot of people by surprise about how much work goes into this.
Speaker 5:It's not just drinking all day although you know cheers to being able to do that sometimes, but it's so much work involved and so much study and so I think people take Psalms more seriously now and, yeah, a lot of interest into it and so and I think, post Me Too movement there's just a lot more recognition for what's not acceptable and how much women have had to work harder to get ahead and to prove themselves, both to themselves like I do on a daily basis, and other people around, and I think the next generation they're not going to lead. Every article with female psalm does XYZ. That still says something today and I am hoping that the next generation that will sound as weird as today an article saying male psalm does X, y, z.
Speaker 1:That sounds weird, right.
Speaker 5:I think the next generation is definitely like gender fluidity nothing really matters, and so I don't think we're going to have articles that start with the term female, SOM or female chef, Also because you got to remember one thing Not only is it that, but the people who are writing these articles are also diversified.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:So that's the other thing too. So that's in everybody's corner as well. That's a good point, leanne. What do you think? Sorry, what do you think about that?
Speaker 3:Well, no, I agree, I think some. I remember watching it the first time and being like, oh, that looks really hard. And you know, I was part of the way through my journey, but not not really that far in, and I'm somebody that if you tell me I can't do something, then I'm gonna do it, just to prove you wrong. And I remember this one person and this was another woman which you know sucks even more honestly, like it's kind of shitty. When was another woman which you know it sucks even more honestly, like it's it's kind of shitty when, like, another woman is like coming coming down on you because you're like, okay, well, we're supposed to be playing for the same team, but that's cool.
Speaker 3:She told me one time. She said you're never going to make it in the industry if you. Uh, because I was, I was a cigarette smoker at the time. I've been off cigarettes for like 10 years now, which is great, but at the time I was a cigarette smoker and I passed my level one and two with a smoker's palette Wow. And she said to me you're never going to make it in the swine industry. And I said, okay.
Speaker 1:She told you you're never going to make it in the cigarette world.
Speaker 3:Yeah Well, let me call my friend Marlboro.
Speaker 4:There are so many, so many Psalms. Who still smoke?
Speaker 3:Exactly, exactly, and it's just really wild to see how much goes into it and how much that we have all individually put into it. When I was studying for my level two, I lived in my own apartment. I had wine maps from Wine Folly on every bit of wall in my living room and I would pull my couch off of the wall and I would look at the wall while I was studying wine. And that is how.
Speaker 1:I like to like the like the in the movies with the serial killers with a string in the room.
Speaker 3:It was a little bit Charlie Day. Yes, it was very much. It's always sunny in Philadelphia. You know I got um, but you know you get, you get people talking down to you all the time and both, both men and women. You get, uh, older people, younger people and they're like, uh, I remember months ago now but people will be like, oh, you're the psalm. Yeah, yes, question mark are we? Are we only speaking in questions right now? Because I can do that too and you know I have six brothers, so I'm I'm pretty tough when it comes down to it and, like I said, I started in sports bars so you're also in the bar business.
Speaker 2:You aren't in restaurants, you are in bars total difference when it comes to clientele and what you have to do.
Speaker 3:Oh yeah, I'm ready for it now you guys are.
Speaker 1:You guys are talking about your, your growth and how you came up this and it's amazing, it's great and everybody listening to it is just probably wanting to hear more. So they're going to track that down right, but what I see is a group of people, including yourself, Casey, that we have all came up kind of in the same time frame a little bit. We all kind of grew in the same type of area, right. So I'm looking at it I think I was telling you this earlier, but I'm looking at it like you ladies are like the ghost of Christmas, oh yeah.
Speaker 2:He has this analogy for the three of you, so I can't wait for you to hear this. Are you ready? This is great right.
Speaker 1:So you guys are like the ghost of the what's the freaking show, christmas Carol right Christmas Carol, charles Dickens. Charles Dickens, we have the ghost of the past, oh, god of the past, because Leanna knows me from the past. She knows my craziness. You've seen me at my craziest.
Speaker 3:Oh, you've seen me at my craziest. Yes, it's fucking amazing.
Speaker 1:And we had some. I mean, we're talking about street level shit, she's seen me at my craziest right. So she's the ghost of Christmas past right. She sees me at my most passionate, probably most growth in my most assholest, assholest right. So I have my driven and ambitious, but she also sees me in my good too, and I've known you since when you first started at the at the main right before. I think you were still in the wine shop when I met you yeah at the time in chesapeake, so you came up from there.
Speaker 1:So you in, in, in watching you grow and then growing with me here, which has been exciting and amazing. That's just so fucking cool. So you're like the ghost of the Christmas present. You're right here, you're right now. You got it, and me and her go back a ways when you were back at Press and I knew you from then, but yet we've never had that actual connection. And I knew you from then, but yet we've never had that actual connection. So I'd love to see what you're doing, because now you're working with some of my employees or people or team downtown. Peter goes there for the wine tasting, so does Chris, I believe, stops in, and some of my people from here Don't? Some of our guys go there for the blinds they have yeah, I've been to her shop too.
Speaker 4:You do too.
Speaker 1:And we went there for a tasting. So I plan on seeing you a lot more in the future now because of this just a relationship, so you're like the ghost of the future, right?
Speaker 2:So I'm going to wake up and be like is it Christmas morning?
Speaker 1:Go get a fucking goose. You know what I mean. There's no goose for sale. You know what I mean.
Speaker 4:We'll get some champagne. Instead, we'll bring the Pinot Noir for the pairing. I rate him in.
Speaker 1:Back to the women and how you guys are. Let me be honest with you. This is how I look at it. Ten years ago, 15 years ago, I was never a guy based on sexism. I never really believed in that. I guess I was just introduced to life differently.
Speaker 1:I was in the military, where women were master chiefs or whatever it may be. I was never really held down. My mother was a beast anyway. My sister is very dominant, so I was always really held down. My mother was a beast Anyway, my sister's very dominant. So I was always around strong women my aunts, my grandmother very dominant strong Italian women. And and right now I can tell you this, as time went on, I feel when it comes to wine and doing my thing, I'm a lot more quick to go directly to a woman Som than I am a man, whether it be a woman sales rep, a woman just in a discussion, and this is truly how I feel, because the pretentiousness is not there. When I go deal with men, I wanna smash them. A lot of the guys I wanna smash because a lot of them are trying to sell you.
Speaker 1:Listen to me, they're trying to sell you their opinion yeah and they're not trying to explain to you why they're not teaching you what it is or the reason why they're thinking the way it is. They're trying to explain to you why you should think the way they are, and I realize that shit. So I have a very low tolerance for that for that period, right? So a lot of the wine psalms now that are, guys typically aren't. Whether they're psalms or not, they're very pushy, they're very demanding. You got to have it like this, but I don't want that.
Speaker 1:I'll tell somebody I want a nice Gattianata and they'll bring me a uh, something, a Sagrantino, because that's what they want and I'm like but that's not what I wanted. I asked you what I wanted here, sell me, sell me what I want here. Do you have anything in the back? And they still want to push what they want, to push and convince me, whereas women will be like oh, gattianata, huh, let's do this. I have this, this, this and this. So I'm a lot more quick to go to a woman. A woman's palate's a lot more delicate these days. It's a lot more. You know, unless I'm talking about I don't want to push all men down these ways. I'm not like that either. But to be honest with you, sitting here with you guys talking about wine is a lot more comforting than going to find three guys to sit here and talk about wine.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it would be a different conversation. It would be a different conversation.
Speaker 1:It wouldn't be about wine, it would slowly go away and you know what I mean.
Speaker 4:It gets into that little what you said what you avoided? The frat boy party a little bit, yeah Well.
Speaker 2:I think that women I mean any industry, so it's not just wine, so any male-dominated industry, construction, medical, any of those.
Speaker 1:Anything.
Speaker 2:Women have to work harder to prove themselves, so therefore they make better team members, better employees, better long-term everything, because you have more to prove. And even though it has changed a lot in the past 10 years, I mean I call it digital Darwinism, where we're like we're advancing faster than we are capable of keeping up with. So as a society, we are trying to process all of this diversity and inclusion but deep down, we still have our core, you know wiring, and that's still hard to overcome. So, like the visceral reaction you had is very like that's visceral for a lot of people. If you say it's a woman, they're like, like they always there's something that's going to happen. But I think that it's helped a lot and I mean, listening to you guys talk, I always felt the same way. Um, you know, my mom was very like chauvinistic towards men. She's like men really can't do shit like that I can't do. So I was raised to do everything a man could do, which included, like hard everything so I never that issue.
Speaker 1:I don't know women outside of that. All the women I'm surrounded by are that way.
Speaker 2:We're not normal. I mean, we know that Maybe you are normal.
Speaker 1:and I don't know, maybe the guys who are bitching about it are the pussies who ain't normal.
Speaker 2:You know what I mean? Yeah, I agree.
Speaker 1:If guys say that, if guys say and look at me and say I'm just saying they're here, fuck you. Yeah, because I don't care. If you don't like it, come fight me. You know where to find me just to go online and fight me. I don't care. I'm telling you right now.
Speaker 5:I think that this is the most wild show we've had so far.
Speaker 1:So we're fine, you guys are fine no, but the bottom line is that's how I feel. I'm not saying it for any other reason. It's, it's our show, yeah, and we invite who we want on the show, who we feel comfortable talking to on the show, and there's not three men sitting here talking about wine with me and I don't think that'll ever be the case. Individually, possibly, but as far as a panel, I'm not interested. I've already heard of it.
Speaker 1:You listen to them all anyway. They just repeat each other. You got it going on, dude. All you have to say is it's fucking good. You know what? 98. Everyone shits their pants and goes home. End of story. Because that Now, if a woman were to say the same thing, how much more research would have to go into that to believe her? Or you know what I mean? I get it. I get it and I would probably believe her first, just because you have to feel you work for it. So you're going to. So it's not going to be a false ass bullshit. People got to have respect and pride in that and I don't think they understand that.
Speaker 2:I think we need to talk about the money aspect of this too. Is there still a lot of discrepancies that you guys see in the in the industry between male and female Psalms?
Speaker 4:in far as pay and currently. Thank you very much, but I mean in general, like overall.
Speaker 2:I mean, what do you, what have you seen?
Speaker 4:Yeah, absolutely the last job that I held. I was managing and also the SOM. The next person that got hired after me, which was a male, was 20,000, paid 20,000 dollars a year more and they didn't even have the same credentials.
Speaker 2:Wow. That was that was interesting. Yeah, that's a kick in the ass.
Speaker 1:I just don't, I cannot fathom it.
Speaker 2:It's sad.
Speaker 1:I can't fathom it. I understand what you guys are saying and I hear it, but I've always had a hard time grasping this because I've never been exposed to it and I look into it and I just don't fucking understand it. If you know what you're doing and you know what you're talking about, what is the problem here? I don't get it how somebody can make such a. It pisses me off. I don't get it. I'm sorry, I don't get it. I never.
Speaker 5:Currently I get paid more because I'm a woman but I'm self-employed.
Speaker 2:But you own your job, so you took a different path.
Speaker 1:I mean you, you're tasting. Me and Bethany work together often, pretty much every weekend, on doing something. As far as the specials and coming together with wine doing a tasting, we have a really nice wine dinner coming up here two, three weeks October 29th, october 29th, we have a huge Plump Jack Cade wine dinner. It's going to be really nice. So we have the privilege of talking to each other and feeding each other off of our passion. Right, I love wine, but I love food more. She loves food but loves wine more. Am I safe saying yeah, okay, so together with that, combination, we come up with some shit.
Speaker 5:Do you ever miss that? Oh, every day. Yeah, I miss the collaboration. I miss working with food as a retailer. I get to send people home with their bottles and I always tell them take pictures. You know, I want to see where my babies end up, but in the restaurant world you get to pour it for them at the table and watch the bite-sip interactions and their eyes kind of widen a little bit and their jaw drops and you know you can see them sink a little bit and I miss those experiences.
Speaker 1:And working with a chef to taste the flavors and go over it. I miss those experiences and working with a chef to taste the flavors and go over it.
Speaker 5:Yeah, and the collaboration of just integrating flavors and not only the food making the wine better and the wine making the food better, but also the chef making the saum better and the saum making the chef better. We are forced to hone in our skills more when we collaborate with other people that are in a similar field, that are just as talented, and a knife sharpens a knife kind of thing.
Speaker 1:Exactly so, speaking of Bethany, cause she's here we have a huge. We have a really good connection when it comes to the food and wine.
Speaker 4:Okay.
Speaker 1:And I can say this right here, right now, that that you have helped me educate my palate, or, um, not so much, not so much educated, but test it, bring it to places. I wouldn't, because I want to make sure that I can produce something that she's going to be excited about, and it also excites me to get something going and I'll, I'll, we'll just go off of description and then she'll come back in the middle of me cooking my special.
Speaker 4:Sometimes you'll bring taste this with that.
Speaker 1:Taste it with it now taste it with it now, and I'll be, you know, and I'm so rewarded by it because hand in the pot, like here I'll just feed it to you, here you're because, you know, an hour into service, you know 13 specials sold already. I'm finally tasting it with it and I'm like oh my god, thank you, it worked.
Speaker 1:Not only did it work, but it worked way better than we thought yeah and then I'll say no, you taste this yeah, get that, get that over here this is demi with that and she'll be like all right, we're fucking doing it and it's a great time it's it's instant reward and I always think about that with your position as far as being in that type of shop. But you ever want to come and hang out with a chef, you can just be in the kitchen.
Speaker 2:Come hang out with us and we can do a collab like that.
Speaker 1:It would be a lot of fun, and that goes for all you guys. I think it would be wonderful when, beautifully, with that, nice wine, everything, I knew it as soon as I walked in. I'm like all right, I love it, I love the stories, I love everything. Tell me what we should do about um, is there any way we can get? We said at the beginning of this show, kind of beginning, how no one walked into this job knowing it was a job. Right, how does that happen? Where we could make it that way and where do you think it could go from there? Right, you get to the level where you almost hit the top of where you can be, right. So what? What about? Wine is going to go into the future? You know what's going to come back, what's going to go around. Give me like each, you give me like two minutes of what you think of how you can get it going. Can you bring younger women into it? It's not all about women either. I sound like I'm bashing dudes. I'm fucking, surely not.
Speaker 2:No, you're empowering women Right, but I'm not bashing dudes. Nobody's going to hate you for that.
Speaker 1:Look, I got this thing. I went in just to have fun doing it and I did it and I'm not going to go any further with it because I cannot compete with you guys. My passion is in that kitchen. I love wine, I drink wine. I need to know enough about it because I own a lot of it and I want to sell it and I want to drink and compare it. So I did what I had to do. So I can't bash men who are going further than me, but I definitely ain't going to bash the women who have gone further than me. That's crazy. So what do you think could happen? Young girls coming in, young people coming in, how do they go after the wine industry without having to learn about it by mistake?
Speaker 4:after the wine industry, without having to learn about it by mistake. Well, we actually have been hosting classes here with the teams from both locations to be able to further their studies. So I teach classes on Tuesdays for those pursuing their exams or who want to further their education.
Speaker 1:And it's not just a normal class. You're doing a phenomenal job. This is a bang-up class. This is a really good. This is basically a mini seminar that you're doing Correct.
Speaker 2:But for people not in the area, you can always go to your local restaurants, find the good places and ask I send them to Kira. A lot and shops, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 4:I send them to Kira. Crystal Shad's also a phenomenal person who W's out of her shop. So for those who are not in the industry, there's now shops who are actually taking up that responsibility, because there's a lot of complexity doing tastings in busy restaurants, of having to take seats out of the dining room. Put those in, establish tastings, and it will. We'll probably be having some on the patio coming up in the next year, which is actually being built right now, which is funny. But I think as a SOM we're focused on expanding sales in the restaurant. So that comes from educating the staff themselves, and it's really interesting we're having this conversation about women in wine, because all of the people in my class are male.
Speaker 2:All of them. There's no other females right now. All right, ladies, so you've got to show up at your local wine shop. Start drinking.
Speaker 1:But not only are they males in her class, they're males with a rate of success. So they started with nothing, meaning a credential, and they're all at least level one right now. Most of them and the ones who aren't are going and, with your help, on your blinds at your shop that we send them to or she sends them to. I absolutely agree with them, and I talk to Peter and Chris about this a lot. You guys are putting something together that is going to benefit this area and that's why I started this conversation up by saying you guys are some of the most important people in the wine industry, because you're actually giving back to it and if anything were to happen to you tomorrow morning, you can say I did my part.
Speaker 4:You know what I'm saying. I think the biggest conversation over females versus male psalms is really, honestly, because we've had to like fight this. Fight not only for the education but also to overcompensate for this kind of idea that we don't know enough when we have the credentials. It's like a double-edged sword. You're like dealing with two factors at one time. I cannot tell you the amount of people who've compared me to another male psalm in the area or like, oh, did you study under him? Do you know him? Or I was like no, I've done this path. Oh, well, he's the best. And it's like well, who is the best? We're all. We all have the same credentials on paper. We've had more experience in the years than others, or some more than others, which I will always give credit to, but it's, I think, for me as an approach for a psalm is like we still have our own palates and we all have our own sales technique and we all have our way of like presenting wine to people.
Speaker 4:I always have come from a background of community. You, you can't build a song without community. You like all of your exams and everything that you do are self-paid. For a self-study. There's no like you don't go to college and study wine in a lot of the industry raising. So it's all self-study, it's all self like and we will mess up because it's like does this work, does this not work? And especially in a smaller area where there's a less like sums per capita, you're reaching to outside cities, bringing it in and also facing this like bringing this new idea to a restaurant that even here, like I've never, I've never had a sommelier before Like what do we do? I don't want to, I don't want to talk to you, I'm intimidated, I'm like no, no, no, this is about hospitality and this is about making you have a great experience. It's many vacation from your day.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think you need to step out of your comfort zone, to learn more about wine anyways, and go to nicer places. And it is intimidating, it is, it's different, it can be it's in all different languages.
Speaker 4:It comes in every shape and size. There's so many factors.
Speaker 1:Making someone comfortable is the key.
Speaker 4:It is.
Speaker 1:That's the key. Don't make them feel bad for what they don't know.
Speaker 2:Don't make them feel stupid. It's like your first day in the gym. You don't want it to be bad.
Speaker 1:What do you say to? I'm sorry.
Speaker 2:Well, I was just going to say we need, I want to get feedback from all of them before we run out of time, so just on the industry advice to people who are coming up, what you think they should try and do and where they could reach out.
Speaker 5:Yeah, exciting, that's always been the mission statement of vino culture is the people I'm employing honestly have generally no wine credentials, and I want to train someone up. It's a lot easier than untraining bad habits, uh, in terms of, like elitist, pretentious culture in in wine. And so, um, the first general manager I hired, she's now a certified sommelier. She was zero wine industry experience. Um, the second general manager, um, she went from level one to now a certified sommelier. And all of the women who work I only actually have female staff um, uh, who work part-time, honestly, really had no experience in wine, and now they're learning and studying and growing, and so I think the key is to get rid of the scarcity mindset of like, oh, if there's another female som out there, that means I'm not as important or I'm not as special. We need to get rid of that. It's not a scarcity game, it's a collaboration game, and if we all can get over the scarcity mindset and learn to collaborate together, then that's where it's at.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and what's your? We can all be SOM Barbie. We need a SOM Barbie we don't have that.
Speaker 3:Okay, we have three of them right here.
Speaker 4:It's not child friendly, it's not child we're still promoting alcohol.
Speaker 2:It's fine, everything is fine. Well, you?
Speaker 3:know and uh, on the side of like coming down to other people's level, is it's? I find it very important and I actually have a social media platform where I do a little bit of, uh, wine education on there. Well, and there's a lot of wine educators on social media like TikTok, instagram, whatever. And I think that promotes accessibility. And I think that's a really important thing too, because when you, you know, go into Barnes and Noble or a bookstore and you're like, okay, I want to buy a wine book because I want to start learning about wine, you're facing like the same, looking at cookbooks, you're facing a wall of books and you're like, oh, okay, what do I choose? And so I think, having those little moments of accessibility, of community because, like Bethany was saying, like it's a community, it's not and, tony, I know you said earlier that it's competition, but I don't personally look at it that way. I look at it as this is a group of women that I can learn something from. This is a group of people I can learn something from and together we can grow and build that wine culture and wine industry.
Speaker 3:And Kira has done a great job with, you know, culture, like really making a mark in downtown Norfolk. You've done a great job out here really making a mark in downtown Norfolk. You've done a great job out here really making a mark and you're starting to see people really get interested in wine again. And I know, like this, the younger generation isn't drinking as much. You know, alcohol isn't really a thing for a lot of the younger generation. But then when you start bringing it in to talk about how you know a glass of wine doesn't have to be going out for you know 10 shots of tequila at the end of the night, it's not the same thing. Like you said, this is the low key show. Yeah, this is our much lower key.
Speaker 2:We're not drinking tequila on the show.
Speaker 1:But, yeah but it is a different, it is a different is culture.
Speaker 2:I mean, that's what it is. So it does bring people, levels them up a little bit, but yeah, I appreciate all their perspectives. But yeah, I appreciate all their perspectives.
Speaker 1:It's a beautiful thing. So one last question for you, daily driver, what are you drinking?
Speaker 4:My nickname started at the first restaurant I worked at. It's Bubbles man.
Speaker 2:Bubbles, one in particular.
Speaker 4:Anything that's from the area of champagne and not a Prosecco.
Speaker 1:That's your daily driver.
Speaker 4:I do, I drink champagne.
Speaker 1:It is. You're right about that. I know that about you. That's true Daily driver.
Speaker 5:So I'm currently not drinking at all. Right now I'm hardcore training, so electrolytes and pre-workout mix. But, if I were to drink, if you were Some Italian varietal that I've never heard of before, just to try a new thing. That would be what I love it.
Speaker 1:Daily driver for you.
Speaker 3:This is literally the toughest question you've asked me so far. Like, oh God, you know, I actually do drink a lot of Virginia wine right now. I am really proud of.
Speaker 1:There's nothing wrong with that.
Speaker 3:I am so proud of Virginia. There's nothing wrong with that it comes so far, so just coming into the season, kind of like hitting the Petit Mansang and the Cab Franc quite, quite a bit.
Speaker 4:I just picked up some of that Dogwood and Thistle.
Speaker 3:Yes, that's such a beautiful label too, because it's the collaboration of someone from Virginia and someone from Scotland, and that's where the Dogwood and Thistle label comes from.
Speaker 2:It's such a beautiful product.
Speaker 1:Amazing. What about you?
Speaker 2:Oh, I drink anything.
Speaker 1:Me, I'm going Nebbiolo all day long. I'm the most accepting parent here.
Speaker 2:I love all my children. I'm the most accepting parent here. I love all my children.
Speaker 1:I'm fine yeah, I'm a Nebbiolo freak all day long. Typically, a Barolo would be my daily.
Speaker 2:I'm the one bartender on the panel so I just drink liquor, so I'm the worst one here. We can get together for tequila later.
Speaker 1:I'm going to end this by saying this, because we are running out of time. It's been amazing having you ladies here. Really want to look forward to doing something more, maybe a collaboration, something like that. We can do that and record it, film it, do something live do some tastings. Some tastings. I really want to get out there and get this going out there more to to really show you show these people, what you really are?
Speaker 1:I think so. I don't. I think a conversation is just a little tiny facet of the very important to let it know. You know what I mean? Um, like just the taste. I have two daughters and I just hope that women like you can empower them to do what they need to do, whether it be wine or whatever it is they're doing. Um, I'm, I'm very, I'm impressed, I'm intrigued, I'm, uh, inspired. So I'm saying that wholeheartedly and honestly. I'm gonna, like I said, I'm fucking surrounded here, so better watch what I say. But anyway, thank you for coming on the show. I really appreciate anything closing for you, casey.
Speaker 2:No, I just say actually for all the people who are listening. If you want to reach out and learn more, I'm sure all of these women would love to give you advice, help you out, being, you know, listening ear. So do you want to tell everybody where they can find you online?
Speaker 3:Yeah, I have a. I'm mostly on TikTok, but it'll be a, and it's also like pop culture and wine, because I think that's like, like I said, another way to kind of come down to people's level, but at Traveling Booze Hound, so you can find me Traveling Booze Hound.
Speaker 1:Traveling Booze Hound, I love it.
Speaker 3:I go on a lot of road trips to wineries.
Speaker 1:What do you got there At Vinoculture, wineshop At Vinoculture.
Speaker 5:Wineshop, that's your plug.
Speaker 1:Come check you out now, bethany.
Speaker 4:Mine's just my name at Bethany G Morris. It's on Instagram, but other than that you'll find me here at Luce Downtown or Luce Granby and Luce Secundo. That's where I'm mostly at Granby and Lucia Secundo.
Speaker 1:That's where I'm mostly at. So if you want a hands-on experience with Bethany, come in here, check her out, let her do her thing and pay attention to these women coming up in the wine world, because I am, I definitely am. I don't think this is going to be the last time we have a-.
Speaker 2:Oh no, it's not. I think this is an amazing representation. We'll put everything below for everybody that wants to find you guys and cheers to just a bunch of bad-ass women, bad-ass women had me settled down.
Speaker 1:You guys had me settled today.
Speaker 2:Calm today. I appreciate it. Calm Cheers, no really.
Speaker 1:Honestly Ciao for now.
Speaker 4:As we say, drink more wine, all right.
Speaker 2:Drink more.
