Burnt Hands Perspective
This is a raw and unfiltered look into the state of the restaurant industry as a whole, powered by longtime friends Chef/Owner Antonio Caruana and former bartender turned News Anchor/TV Host Kristen Crowley.
Representing all aspects of the industry from the front to the back of the house we will dig into the juiciest stories and pull from decades of experience in one of the sexiest and most exciting industries in the world...the food and beverage industry.
From international chefs, sommeliers, industry pros, and so much more, this show will cover all of it without a filter. You turn up the volume; we'll turn up the heat.
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Burnt Hands Perspective
Ep 34 - A Culinary Critic's Journey Through 30 Years of Food Writing - The evolution of food writers
Ever wondered what it's really like to be a professional food critic? Lifting the veil on three decades of culinary journalism, this episode features an awesome conversation with Jolene Ketzenberger, Indianapolis's preeminent food writer whose career spans the transformation from traditional print reviews to today's digital landscape.
Ketzenberger takes us behind the scenes of old-school restaurant criticism—where critics visited establishments multiple times under pseudonyms, tested restroom cleanliness with strategically placed paperclips, and scrutinized every aspect of the dining experience. Her stories reveal how thoroughly critics once evaluated restaurants before social media transformed food writing forever.
We dive deep into the cyclical nature of dining trends, particularly examining the decade-long shift away from white tablecloths toward casual dining environments. "I do think that we are going to see a swing back toward more acceptance of fine dining," Ketzenberger predicts, "and I do think the tablecloths are coming back."
We also explores how COVID-19 reshaped the culinary landscape, forcing innovation while devastating countless establishments. Ketzenberger shares her experience launching a restaurant accelerator mere weeks before pandemic shutdowns.
For food enthusiasts, aspiring critics, and industry professionals alike, this episode offers invaluable perspective on the ever-evolving relationship between restaurants and those who write about them. Whether you're curious about regional Midwestern cuisine, the future of fine dining, or what really happens when a critic sits down at your table, you'll find yourself captivated by this insider's tour through the fascinating world of food criticism.
Follow Jolene Ketzenberger on social media and learn more about Culinary Crossroads to discover Indiana's vibrant food scene:
https://www.instagram.com/jolene.ketzenberger/
https://www.instagram.com/culinarycrossroadsin/
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Listen up here. The restaurant industry is grueling and unpredictable, just like this show. From the front of the house to the back of the house and all in between. We will turn up the heat, you turn up the volume. I'm Chef Antonio Caruana. Welcome to the Tell All Podcast at Burnt Hands for a Record. All right, let's introduce you, because your name is written down on multiple publications. For how many years?
Speaker 2:Oh my goodness, Do we have to do that?
Speaker 1:Yes, we have to do it. Come on, I'm no spring chicken either.
Speaker 2:So over 30 years I've been writing about Indianapolis, okay.
Speaker 1:Well, I've been cooking for 30 years.
Speaker 2:Okay, there we go. We're on the same page, okay.
Speaker 1:So tell us about yourself a little bit, because I want everyone out there to know when you're, when you're in Indianapolis, you're here. They know who you are, right, anyone who's a foodie. Right, people who go out looking for food. So everyone who's going to be watching who's not from here. Right, you bring something that is in every city, right you?
Speaker 2:you are the one here, right, there's people, there's everywhere. That's right. You go somewhere else, you find somebody like me to talk to, right.
Speaker 1:Sure, so go ahead, tell us about yourself.
Speaker 2:Well, so I've been writing about food and dining cooking here in central Indiana for a long time over 30 years. I work for our general interest magazine, indianapolis Monthly. A long time ago.
Speaker 1:But that was a big publication though, because this was before social media.
Speaker 2:Before social media. That's what they like to say the original influencers.
Speaker 1:Right, and then we were talking about a time when, a time that I miss, a time that I talk about as a culinary. It's really hard for me to accept so much that's going on social media. Now it has its place here we are on it, of course.
Speaker 2:Here we are on it.
Speaker 1:So I've chose, and we've chose to spread our word using it, and we've chose to spread our word using it, but we didn't want to overcrowd it. We wanted to do something different, almost as if we're doing a virtual article. Right, right, right, because everybody can food blog, anybody can do this, and that takes away from you, correct?
Speaker 2:It kind of does. It did with all the blogging and stuff that came on. It opened up the business, right, right. But I came in when there was still restaurant critics, you know, and that was what they did. And they, you know, they went to some place several times, multiple times.
Speaker 1:I like her already, I like you already.
Speaker 2:We're talking, you know and so I came up kind of old school with the. You know, the restaurant critic was the editor of the magazine and if you got to go along on a restaurant review, that was awesome because of course they picked up the tab and you got to go to nice places.
Speaker 1:And they had a name.
Speaker 2:And they had a name and she was probably trying to hide menus in her purse at the time because nothing was online. And so that's when I started. And so the idea was that if you did a restaurant review, you didn't want them to know that you were there. You made a reservation in somebody else's name. You went three or four times, you ordered, you took people with you so that you could have all sorts of different foods.
Speaker 1:So you went three or four times. So that's a big eye opener for a lot of people. A lot of people think you went one time. That was it. They could have had a bad and it's a hard way to judge that way right it is. It's not fair.
Speaker 2:Huh, it could have had a bad evening, but you want to see what they're like for the regular person. So you don't want to say, oh hi, I'm the editor of whatever you know, get me in. No, you want to kind of slip in.
Speaker 1:See what it's like for a normal day, and see what it's like for a normal day.
Speaker 2:Look around, you know. Is it dusty? Are the restrooms clean? And you're looking at all of it.
Speaker 1:Can you say that again for the people in the back? People don't realize that in the restaurant world and I'm so hard on my staff about that particular thing, you have to be hard on yourself If there's a chip on the wall of paint. Why is it still there? Why is?
Speaker 2:it still there? Why are the things scuffed up? Why is the wall scuffed?
Speaker 1:Why is there dust on this thing? Why is my charger plate not right? Why is this all?
Speaker 2:happening. I remember reading a story of a New York Times restaurant critic who would go into the restroom and set a paper clip on the edge of the sink and then he would go back in later and see if that paper clip had been swooped away Sure. And if it had, then he knew somebody was checking the restrooms and and you know, and so the restrooms are a great example. Sure, they are a great example.
Speaker 1:If you're in a dining room to be entertained and you want to go in the bathroom and you're going to take care of your personal business, why is the area where you're taking care of the most personal part of you, which is you, the worst condition? How is that safe for the outside? Exactly, it's a false smoke show Exactly.
Speaker 2:If there's not a place to hang your coat in the restroom, then what are you supposed to do? Put it on the floor.
Speaker 1:Correct. Oh, that doesn't that doesn't bode well. They'll take whatever's in there into the dining room. That's no good.
Speaker 2:Right. So so that's that's how I came up in the business, sure. And then. So, after after I had my kids, I was home freelancing and our local alternative publication did a reader survey. You know, what do our readers like to do? They do this and they do this. This is where they go, and the number one hobby that was listed in that reader survey 30 something years ago was cooking for fun. And I thought, oh well, you know, if that's what your readers like to do, you should have a column on that and I should write it Right, because I was a freelancer by that time.
Speaker 1:So you did the research, you came up with this and then this idea kind of evolved.
Speaker 2:And the editor called me and, of course, called at the time and said oh, that's a great idea, Love it, but our restaurant critic just quit. Can you do that? It's like? Of course, because you're a freelancer.
Speaker 1:You do everything. You were trying to do something because you couldn't do that Right, and now that came up.
Speaker 2:So that's how I started doing restaurant reviews, you know, and so I did that for a while and more and more, and then a couple more kids came along, you know.
Speaker 1:Sure.
Speaker 2:So then eventually the local newspaper called and said hey, you still into food writing? You know, it's like well sure? So I started on at the Indianapolis Star as the food writer.
Speaker 1:That's big.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:That's big. I mean, indianapolis is not a small town, folks. We're not talking about a little small town, USA. This is a big city. That's right. So to have that title is a big thing and a lot of weight on your shoulders too, because you have to make the proper thing, because you don't want to piss off a lot of fans either.
Speaker 2:Right, you don't want to piss them off what you do right and you want them to believe you.
Speaker 1:So if you're going, if you have a restaurant you're gonna walk into and there's a huge fan base and a lot of that fan base has been going there for 15 years and you rate something a little bit off and they're gonna be mad at you. Maybe you're not judge you. Is that that's a pressure you?
Speaker 2:have, and they do get mad that's my next question.
Speaker 1:Yes, what comes next? Oh well, I hate mail.
Speaker 2:I've had people who say I'm gonna, I'm going to get you fired, you know, because you critiqued my restaurant. And eventually, just to be honest, I did get fired from the Star because I had a website, you know. So I had my own website.
Speaker 1:Oh gotcha.
Speaker 2:And so they didn't care for that and it's like, okay, I get it, and this is social media time.
Speaker 1:Sure.
Speaker 2:We're starting to be. Oh, they wanted digital first.
Speaker 1:Was this when it was just kicking into that social media flux?
Speaker 2:Yes, it was just, and people really didn't know how to navigate. I said you know, we should do this website that way. I have so much more information than it could possibly fit in the paper and also.
Speaker 1:This was way back when they were afraid, almost like when Canon didn't want to go to digital cameras. So they were afraid that the newspaper has to be read and physical.
Speaker 2:Yeah, the newspaper has to be read and physical, yeah, and you had a website and they didn't want that, and so I said, well, that's all right, I'm not going to take it down.
Speaker 1:That's the devil's work, right.
Speaker 2:But I'm not going to take it down. And so we parted ways and that was all right, because of course it's been very challenging times in newspapers.
Speaker 1:Yeah, of course. Advertisement sh Of course. So what I'm gathering here in this conversation is you're happy you stuck with that. That's something that made you carry on. Yes, absolutely.
Speaker 2:Absolutely so. Then I started doing other things. I had a radio program here on our public radio station for several years, so it was this sort of thing where you go out and interview people. I love talking to people in kitchens and getting the sounds of what's going on. So I've gone in restaurant kitchens and farm fields and that sort of thing, just recording just your basic, these kind of microphones and that's a lot of fun.
Speaker 1:So what it is that you've seen in 30 years? You've seen the restaurant industry change. You've seen the styles of food change, the styles of even the styles of serving and the styles of tablecloths, going from white tablecloth to wood top. Exactly, you've seen the whole thing. What do you see happening now? Is anything reverting back? Do you think fine dining is on the uprise, slowly coming back? I believe it is.
Speaker 2:I think it is.
Speaker 1:I think that my personal opinion is and it's good to talk to you about this, because you're not the person. I'm the person trying to figure it out, so I can continue on and keep the crowd happy. You're the one reporting to the crowd, so therefore you're in the crowd, right?
Speaker 2:Well, you try to be, You're in the crowd right.
Speaker 1:You have to be through their mindset so you can give them the right description back of what it is they're trying to get. Exactly so. When you're looking at things like the fine dining scene, to me, I feel truly and I've said it before that people are, they want to be catered to, they want to be treated right.
Speaker 2:They want to be served. Well, everybody likes to be treated nicely, don't they? Of course, you know you want to make it special.
Speaker 1:So that one craze that went through the mid-early 2000s when you know, I believe it was Grant Ackett's, which is probably influential to your area because he is more great, great, great, great chef, but he's one of the first guys with Alinea who really took the tablecloths off the table and all that, and then that became a craze. He was doing it for different reasons at the time, but really for bills and stuff. But when he did that it instantly made it acceptable for everybody, for everybody. But everybody couldn't live up because what everyone didn't realize is that Grant was still bringing the levels of service to them.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:Everyone else took them away and didn't have that level. So now you're getting a bowl of quinoa with your little shared duck breast and it's coming on a wooden table and you'll have to call your number, because that's the new thing. Well, people got used to that, right, am I wrong?
Speaker 2:No, you're exactly right and that's what happened. So, chefs like Grant, they took those away, but didn't diminish the service and the quality of the food.
Speaker 1:So they made it a trend Right as part of the decor, but so many other places.
Speaker 2:Well then, okay, if we don't care about tablecloth, maybe we don't care about which side we serve from, if we don't care about that. Maybe we don't care about having nice silverware.
Speaker 1:Oh, no linens means no crummer. Take that step of service out of there, right.
Speaker 2:And no linens mean no linen service that you have to pay.
Speaker 1:Sure Right, right, exactly.
Speaker 2:So I can see why people do that, saving thousands. Thousands. And I remember when our chefs here I remember talking to one of our chefs perennially on the James Beardsley finalist list here and he said I'm taking away my white tablecloths, I'm just taking it away. And of course it changes things.
Speaker 1:But then at the time the chef told me the chef you're talking about deserves that, as Grant did, he took away the tablecloths. I know who you're talking about. That, as grant did, he took away the table clause. I know who you're talking about. I don't know if you want to mention names or not, but I will well, I'm talking about david talent from bloomington restaurant talent and he was.
Speaker 2:He was on the long list before they, before they called okay.
Speaker 1:Well, there's another chef in town doing the same thing, but well deserving, okay, a current modern chef. So so I wouldn't have named that person because I don't know that person. However, it does happen it does. And it does happen. When it happens right, it's okay. But I'm talking about the fine dining. Coming back to the American standard of cooking, it never really went away in Europe. You know that. So I go to Europe often and you go to a nice restaurant. It's been the same for 100 years.
Speaker 2:It's never changed and that's okay, that it's been the same for 100 years.
Speaker 1:It's never changed and that's okay, that's right, that's okay, it's beautiful. Because when you're there is when you realize you miss it. You're like, wow, I miss this. They really do crumb and they really do take their time.
Speaker 2:It is so nice to have that level of experience. I remember when I was reviewing it had been a terrible day and I probably had a headache and we walked into this old school kind of restaurant. It's like, sit down, ladies, we'll take care of everything. And I was like how nice that someone's going to take care of everything.
Speaker 1:Sure, but you don't get that so often when they're mechanically taking, placing on the side and taking from the other, working the table as they should, and clockwork when they're putting their food down in front of you because they know your placements on the table, numbers, their seatings. This is all stuff that takes time and that's what makes it right, instead of walking to the table, who?
Speaker 2:had the roast beef who had the perch. Auctioning off the dishes. Correct, that's right.
Speaker 1:Exactly. Terminology is correct, so you know. That's why I like talking to you. This is a fun time for me because it's not often I get to talk to the person critiquing. We're typically critiquing ourselves to make sure we're meeting the standard, but we're not talking to the critiquer.
Speaker 2:We avoid them and we typically we typically try to avoid interaction. Although I've done this for so long, I can't be. I'm not anonymous anymore.
Speaker 1:And the good news is I'm not in your locality, so it's okay. So I can talk to you all day.
Speaker 2:And I don't review these days. You know, since I left the Star, you know I've had the podcast on WFYI, our local public radio station.
Speaker 1:So you have a podcast as well. I did for several years.
Speaker 2:I couldn't get it into the lineup. I wanted it to be at a certain time. I wanted it to come after Splendid Table on there, you know. But I could never get the good time slot that I wanted, but I've talked to so many people for that. Right now, I work for an organization called Culinary Crossroads and we are trying to promote the culinary community around the state, throughout the whole state, not just Indianapolis, and so we've done a variety of chef dinners, collaborative chef dinners.
Speaker 1:Is there any way you can say how people can look into that? Is that something people can look at and follow you, or something?
Speaker 2:Yeah, they can look at culinarycrossroadsorg. We have a newsletter that I put together that goes out every other week, so they can certainly sign up for that.
Speaker 1:And that's an email format. Absolutely, that's all good information.
Speaker 2:So we're really trying to raise the awareness and especially after COVID you know that was so hard on the culinary community All sorts of groups, it was devastating for some.
Speaker 1:Most it was devastating for most, yes, and a really good thing for some. For me, it was very good for me. It grew me up very fast, meaning mature.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:It made me become a chef of reason.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:Not so much getting off on the fact that I had great loyal customers who happened to love my palate and my food. It made me realize that this can go away at any point in time. So it made me critique a lot of things I was doing. It made me see a lot of the things that was wasted or taken for granted Right, so there were positives.
Speaker 1:There was positive. The biggest positive, though, is if you took care of your business before COVID happened, you definitely benefited, and I will say that the government did help those who were in situations where they put themselves in a good spot.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:If you weren't, I feel bad for you. I was in a good spot.
Speaker 2:It helped me move forward in advance in my life and I took full advantage of that Well in 2020, I had been working with the city of Fishers here in Indiana, just right up the road here, and we were creating a restaurant accelerator. So we were creating a spot that had three like restaurants stands. You might call it like quick service and we were going to test out concepts right. So it was a way for a young chef to get in Almost like a pop-up situation.
Speaker 2:Yes, and so we had been working on that for several years. We opened in February of 2020.
Speaker 1:Oh boy.
Speaker 2:We had six good weeks and I had in the restaurant accelerator a little what I call the culinary performance space and I was envisioning intimate chef dinners. I had it set up just how I wanted it so the chef could cook right in front of you, seating all around, you know, very small 10, 12, 14 people. And we had six weeks of dinners and classes and Valentine's Day, and it was, oh, it was great. And then COVID and no one wanted intimate dinners and classes and Valentine's Day, and it was, oh, it was great. And then COVID and no one wanted intimate dinners anymore. So that space eventually became more of a pop-up, you know, and so my intimate chef dinner space didn't really work out, but we did continue. You know, the restaurant accelerator did open, it stayed. We had one of our chefs in one of the stands who stayed there throughout all of the shutdowns, you know, just for carryout, just for carryout.
Speaker 1:They did good.
Speaker 2:They did good, they managed and he's still in business Good and grew into a different location.
Speaker 1:Luckily for me, in my downtown location I had carryout only obviously, and I would have a line of reservations of cars down the street, so it worked out well for me, just because I kept staying at it, and at it, and at it. What do you think of the new guard of cooks and chefs coming into the? Do you see anything that makes you a little concerned or you almost shake your head like this isn't how it used to be, or of course that's always going to be right. But to me it's really hard to hit that because I know of course I'm very modern and I'm very modernly thinking. So I do realize that things change.
Speaker 1:I get it, I'm part of the change right I've been part of that change, so a lot of the old guard that I used to work with or work under can't understand what I'm doing now, because it's so modern in a sense, yeah, but still um, I'm still got the brakes on. Compared to what I see. What I see, though, it's a lot of lax, it's a lot of nonchalant. No hurry, no haste. Walking in with your chef pants that aren't truly chef pants, your apron that's really leather and probably holds more damn dirt than these things that are. The beards and the hats that are on backwards, and the ball caps Right, you know, they're just a non-this, non-this, right, and I don't know why it went. Anti-the-role, like the ACF, for instance, is a great standard.
Speaker 2:It's a great standard.
Speaker 1:And people don't want to pay attention to it right now, but that's.
Speaker 2:I do think that we are going to see a swing back toward more acceptance of fine dining and I do think the tablecloths are coming back.
Speaker 1:I do too, and I think the brigade system is coming back. It has to.
Speaker 2:Yes, I think so, because the more casual sort of service it's okay. It's okay, I think, if the expectations are casual, you know.
Speaker 1:Well, I think you're absolutely right and I also think that this is a decade-long thing. This whole relaxed system came out about a decade ago, right, and that has its time. It's running out, and I think, the people who are doing it. If you're going to have a casual situation, you have to hire casual staff you have to hire cat staff that doesn't really hold themselves up to the standard of moving forward in the culinary world you know, it's probably not their goal and it's not their goal.
Speaker 1:so that's what you have to do, because people who are serious like us, and they're going to go to a serious place and they're going to give that time to them. So I think that 10 year of that is wearing down and those chefs who started that are getting tired and it's going to start fading out. So I think, if you want to call it I don't want to call it a millennial thing because it's not, but I guess if you're going to compare it to something, it'd be that type of description, right.
Speaker 2:It might be. It might be that could work for you as a way to describe it One of the chefs locally who closed his fine dining restaurant and within the year had opened a pizza joint. You know because he saw what was happening.
Speaker 1:Sure.
Speaker 2:No more white tablecloths. I'm going to do pizza, and he said, but it's going to come back Of course it is.
Speaker 1:The young chefs will get tired. They'll get tired of that casual. It's a, it's a trend, like everything else, and I think that once um, like 11, madison park, made out these statements that fine dining's dead, we're closing down I think everybody just jumped on that, just like they did when they said fine dining's amazing, we're going to win michelin stars, and they all wanted to do that. So I think what happened is I think a lot of these people jump too soon. I think they jump too soon and I think that if they would have just stuck it through, they'll see I could be wrong. I hope not. Luckily for me, I have one fine dining and I have one more casual and not just one type of people want both.
Speaker 2:I think people want both types for different occasions.
Speaker 1:And I am finding that to be the case. So the one I have that's more fine dining is, I mean, sorry, more casual. It's only casual because it's more of a bar scene martini wine bar with a beautiful menu. That will always remain that way, but this has been a pleasure. It's really good to talk to you about this.
Speaker 2:It's great. I love talking about dining and food trends and you know I do a lot with recipe development as well, so food trends, you know, are very interesting to me too, and that's always the thing, so I love to see what chefs are doing. You know what restaurants in different parts of the country are doing different parts of the world, Because, of course, everything has become more global, and so you might find inspiration in a different country I do travel a lot to get that inspiration.
Speaker 1:I travel to Italy. I'm an Italian chef, but my work is to learn the traditions of each region and each kingdom, as Italy was. Before they were countries, why they came from where they were, understanding the rules of them, from the beginnings, the origins. But now I'm a multi-regional infusion, I infuse multi-regions and I also put my modern twist on them, not so much molecularly but a touch of it, but a little bit more of just a really nice fine style of eating it. So it is a fine dining, just a really nice fine style of eating it. So it is a fine dining, very modern Italian food based off the origins and traditions of the rules of it. So it's fun. But I don't get that inspiration unless I go anywhere else. If I don't go to Vita here in Indianapolis to see how he's dealing with some gnocchi dish with an American twist, how am I going to infuse it any other way than what I know of how it comes from Naples, right, exactly. So I need to get that inspiration from everywhere.
Speaker 2:I love regional cooking and I focus on Midwest and the Great Lakes area, so I like to focus on that and home cooking, you know, is the kind of recipes that I do. I'm on our local Indy Now show every week, with one week it's restaurant news, the next week it's a quick little dish that you can make at home.
Speaker 1:That's great, that's cool.
Speaker 2:So it is fun to explore those things that make things home cooking. You know that make things taste like home, Whether it tastes like home if your home is in Italy, or if it tastes like home and your home is here in the Midwest.
Speaker 1:Absolutely, and the Midwest has got so much to offer. There's so much indigenous product that comes from here. You guys probably your vegetable scene and gardening scene. I can just imagine how amazing it is.
Speaker 2:Oh, you come back in July and have the tomatoes and the sweet corn.
Speaker 1:Come on the sweet corn. Yes, right off the cob, cold, exactly. This has been amazing. Why don't you tell us one more time a couple of avenues? People can look for you and follow you, especially in this area and outside the area, because I always tell people if you're going to come to a region or watch us if we're traveling. I try and get people to come here and come here comfortably you know and know where to look.
Speaker 2:I would love for you to leave. I'm online at Facebook, instagram, x Blue Sky.
Speaker 1:What can they find you under? What's the name?
Speaker 2:Jolene Ketzenberger. Jolene Ketzenberger depends on how much space, I've got. Jolene Ketzenberger, you can look up Culinary Crossroads, and that's our organization that promotes the culinary community around the state, and so we're on Facebook and Instagram as well.
Speaker 1:So they can find me Facebook, instagram, all sorts of places, and I think I think they should, and I'm going to, because I think you have a lot more resources than what we're talking about here. We're talking about blogging and food writing over the restaurant scene. That's pretty typical, as we all know, but I have a feeling you have your hands in all kinds of stuff. You're in the farming game. You know where to get the proteins. I'm sure you're dabbling in the pork game. You know where to get all the vegetables. You've already mentioned some of that stuff, so it's important to follow her. I'm going to follow you because I want to know that I will be back in the area for sure. It's guaranteed we will be back in. We will be back a couple times in between then, so maybe I can meet you for dinner. We can chop it up that would be amazing.
Speaker 2:Absolutely, wouldn't that be fun? Absolutely, and we'll check out the restroom too.
Speaker 1:Yeah, right, yep, and we'll just have a good time.
Speaker 2:Just see how tidy that is.
Speaker 1:This has been an honor, thank you so much. Thank you so much.
