Burnt Hands Perspective
This is a raw and unfiltered look into the state of the restaurant industry as a whole, powered by longtime friends Chef/Owner Antonio Caruana and former bartender turned News Anchor/TV Host Kristen Crowley.
Representing all aspects of the industry from the front to the back of the house we will dig into the juiciest stories and pull from decades of experience in one of the sexiest and most exciting industries in the world...the food and beverage industry.
From international chefs, sommeliers, industry pros, and so much more, this show will cover all of it without a filter. You turn up the volume; we'll turn up the heat.
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Burnt Hands Perspective
Design Secrets: The Art of Designing Restaurant Spaces with an Interior Designer
Chef Tony, KC, and designer Heather Robinson get into the crucial elements of successful restaurant design, from balancing aesthetics with profitability to creating memorable spaces that enhance customer experiences. Heather shares her practical insights on space planning, lighting, seating variety, and often-overlooked design opportunities from decades of experience.
Some great takeaways you will get in this episode:
• Restaurant design success hinges on positive customer experience and profitability
• Efficient kitchen design allows for more revenue-generating dining space
• "Functional decor" maximizes impact while minimizing costs
• Warm lighting (2700 Kelvin) enhances both food appearance and customer experience
• Multiple seating types create diverse dining experiences even in small spaces (and how many types you should have)
• Bathrooms and doorways offer opportunities for memorable design moments
• Regular refreshes (every 5-7 years) maintain restaurant relevance
• Commercial-grade materials prevent costly replacements within 18 months
• Finding a designer who balances creativity with practical knowledge is essential
• Never copy another restaurant's design, create something authentic to your vision
Connect with Heather's design firm Within Interior Design: https://www.withindesigns.com/
And on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/withininteriordesign/
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Welcome to the show! Burnt Hands Perspective
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Ah ding, ding. That's our cheesy opening right there. We did something different today, so we have some beautiful tequila. We have the beautiful Heather Robinson here, right. Yes, we're throwing Palmer on there.
Speaker 1:I forgot my man Big D, you can do whatever you want. My Big D, yeah, big D, my man Big D, big D Palmer, all right, so great friend of mine, essential key.
Speaker 2:Key to your business, key to my business but also key to most businesses. So what we're going to talk about today. Obviously, burhan's perspective goes to the restaurant world of all levels, but nothing more important to a restaurant than the design of your restaurant. How has your vision come to life? How does it go from the food on a plate to actually making customers feel like they're in something more so deserving than the food actually, so something that matches. If your food is so spectacular, right, your atmosphere should be matching, or better. That's how.
Speaker 2:That's how I feel on the same level which, when people spend a million dollars in a restaurant to serve a chicken parmesan, that's the problem, right? So heather you have been in the design world and you're very well known, especially locally. You have stuff going on all over the place. You're at all levels, not only with restaurants. Actually, I think restaurants correct me if I'm wrong is probably your least portfolio, right? I think I'm probably your.
Speaker 1:Well, if you can include restaurants inside of country clubs, yeah, yeah, like taverns and whatnot.
Speaker 2:Sure.
Speaker 1:A number of those, but you're correct, we've only done probably five or six.
Speaker 2:Well, let me tell you, those five or six are amazing, and what I have going on here with your design is freaking crazy. So it's funny you just mentioned that because I wasn't even going to go on that topic, but I didn't even think about it. So you open up a country club, you're designing the country club In. That country club is a restaurant, eatery, bistro, whatever it may be right. And you have to design that flow into the flow of the golfers and entertainment, how they're going to come in, how they're going to come out.
Speaker 1:so everyone goes into the clubhouse for food right, dining, drinking beer, exactly, whatever it may be events looking at the 18th hole so that's a huge part of your thing.
Speaker 2:So, once again, no matter what industry you're in, the restaurant is here to haunt you.
Speaker 1:You can't get away from it.
Speaker 2:Can't get away from it. Cheers to that Cheers. We gotta have a little sippy sip in our Canadian tuxedo.
Speaker 3:look of the day, which we did not plan, by the way. We just all happened to have this, which was funny we were vibing.
Speaker 3:But it's a good way to start it off, because yeah, design, like we were talking about in the other episodes. Like you know, people start judging before they even walk through the door, right, yeah, and you've learned over the years, like the aesthetics and things that work in a restaurant and what don't and what makes people you know, and I think most of your reviews even some of the reviews you get are beautiful place, gorgeous design, service was like they'll, they'll, they'll, rip on the service or things like that, but the, the design. You don't have as much of that issue.
Speaker 2:No one ever has said this place sucks.
Speaker 3:Nobody.
Speaker 2:No one, no one has ever said I can't believe this place, it's how pathetic. No one ever said that. Everyone always says the amazingness of this place and that all comes down to the design. So what? I'm looking at my camera telling these people out there when you go to design something, open up your restaurant, you need to come up with a couple of different things. One of them is, in the least of it, your menu. That should already been decided long ago that you should have confidence in that. The second thing is your um, your layout, your plan, and thirdly is how the flow is going to be involved with that plan, how the flow and the functional decor and how things are gonna work and how the functionality of everything for percentages, and how are you gonna maximize the most out of that room to be able to sustain a career in a lifestyle and pay employees everything else.
Speaker 2:So, heather, when you come into the restaurant world, talk a little bit about you. Know what makes a restaurant design successful to you.
Speaker 1:Sure, and unfortunately, a lot of my compatriots in the design world believe that a successful restaurant design is when you win awards, design awards, and that's absolutely not true. It is two things. It comes down to the customer experience and that it's a positive one, and then, second one, that the restaurant is profitable. You don't want to create the taj mahal and then you're not making any money, and and there's tricks and and tips on on how to make things profitable with design so use utilizing the room to to maximum, maximum capacity of getting as much.
Speaker 2:We call it asses and seats right to be able to turn around the tables. Turn around every. Every seat should be able to bring in a certain amount of money per year.
Speaker 1:Exactly, and so what we like to do is do a percentage of back of house area versus dining room, and typically you want to have 35% to 40% back of house, and back of house includes the kitchen, auxiliary circulation in the restrooms, storage, whatnot. What's interesting about you and your spaces is that you are super efficient in the way you run your kitchen, which translates into more room in the dining area. So this space right here is just over 6,000 square feet. You are just under the average. You're 32% back of house, and then, if you include the outdoor seating, you're actually closer to 23%, 25% or so like that. So that just means more money in your pocket, right? More people, and it's really just a testament to how you run your kitchen line honestly. With that.
Speaker 1:And then also, I love design charrettes with you when we have our kitchen vendors in here trying to sell you every single piece of equipment you know, and it takes up space, takes up money takes up my money and I'm sure we probably were in a dozen meetings where you were arguing with the kitchen vendor which was the kitchen designer, which is a big no-no. You should never have your kitchen designer selling you the equipment Correct, Because they're going to try to sell you a pasta kitchen, and then they end up hating me because I tell them to fuck off.
Speaker 2:And it's that simple. Yes, you've seen it, literally You've seen it I look right at somebody right in the meeting and say you know what I'm leaving. You guys can talk amongst yourselves about how this just went Sure.
Speaker 1:And if you would have gone with the package that they specified, your kitchen would have been twice the size, Correct, and you were very prudent on everything. We went through those specifications probably I don't know, 20 times and got it down to what works for you 20 times and got it down to what works for you, what you the sequencing was important and not bottlenecking some of the circulation for your staff. That was all super important in saving space and that is why your number of back of house, your percentage, is so low, which is awesome.
Speaker 2:And when it comes to that now, moving on to that with that, so it is easy. If I told you, heather, I have $3 million design this place, that becomes a little bit more easy for you, because now you can just go crazy and, of course, you could spend it very fast, right?
Speaker 2:But, it gives you a lot more brain power. Sure Brain, you know paper to floor, you know it happens faster, right? So someone coming in with a budget more so, or a little bit of a tighter pocket, you still want to give them the best experience they can have, what they can afford, right? So now we, now I consider that I call that my terminology for it. Maybe it's wrong, I'm not a designer, but I call it functional decor. How can you really give someone advice if they're going to open up a restaurant and they don't have the millions of dollars? What, what non-expensive ideas do you have that? You've helped me with that a lot. So there's a lot of things like I want to do this. This isn't this. Well, that's going to cost you this, this isn't this, but we can do this, this isn't this. I'm like, yeah, you're right. So what do you think?
Speaker 1:about several things. Um, right off the bat, to enhance the customer's experience and comfort. Uh, for instance, it's so simple, purse hooks at the bar. Yeah, so simple, those are $2.99.
Speaker 1:You know, get 10 of them. Call it a day. Second thing is, what I would do is make sure we all have choices in table bases. There's the one that looks like a propeller that's really hard to put your feet on. They cost the same as the flat ones that are much more comfortable to put your feet flat on the ground and rest them, if you can see and I'm pointing to a table base right now but I mean that isn't any difference in cost right there.
Speaker 2:Sure.
Speaker 1:There's other things like use your equipment or your product or your inventory as part of the design, instead of me specifying a light fixture that costs $50,000, why don't we light up your beautiful bourbon that has amber colors and bourbon, and so we light them from underneath and it actually becomes a light fixture and it's usable, it's functional, it's storage. Those are things that don't cost any money. You were going to spend it anyways you know.
Speaker 2:so you got to build a wall for your bourbon, if that's in the plan. So how can we utilize that and make it even better for a lot less money? Led strips are not much money in comparison.
Speaker 1:And, speaking of LED strips, making one thing that you should absolutely do you've got to have lighting in your restaurant, and preferably layers of lighting. You want everything at 2700 Kelvin. It makes the food beautiful, it makes your skin look beautiful, and 2700 Kelvin is a metric unit of color temperature. I don't know if you've been to a restaurant or a bar where it looks like a lunar landing is happening yes, Under, like a bar, and it's distracting. It's just a simple specification of a warmer glow in all your lights and making sure that. I mean, if you have to have lights in the ceiling, okay, I I tend to stay your way. This isn't an office.
Speaker 1:You're not doing surgery here right so bring the, bring the light at eye level. Uh, tuck the light in columns. Um, like I said, hide it behind inventory, behind the bar. These types of things you need light anyways. Just put it in thoughtful places so that it's not doing any damage.
Speaker 2:Do you find that when you're working with me as a chef, compared to someone who you're building an office building for or whatever it is you're doing more of, so, is it different? Working with a chef in the restaurant world? Is it different? Designing, is it a little bit more?
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, and the great thing about you is, and you can go ham too. You don't even hurt my feelings. Is it more fun or is it harder? Is it a pain in the fucking ass dealing with me as a chef? Because that's what you've got to really say.
Speaker 1:Well, there's a couple things about you that I don't have with other clients. First but first of all, I can't tell you well, I can't tell my other clients to go fuck off.
Speaker 2:I can with you, and I appreciate that. Of course so do I, and they should learn how to do that, because if they did, they'd find out that life is much easier.
Speaker 1:And one of the things that I do remember is you didn't want lighting coming out of that column and I was like you absolutely need that. You were wrong.
Speaker 2:I am right on this.
Speaker 1:Please, and it's not going to cost you any more money.
Speaker 2:Sure.
Speaker 1:And I'm glad we stuck to it and thank you for trusting me on that. Another thing about working with you as a chef you have not even as a chef, just you, tony. You had incredible resources that helped us create these moments, these wow factors in this restaurant that I typically don't have and I don't know if I can say his name. But Steve, yeah, sure, yeah, I typically don't have and I don't know if I can say his name but Steve, yeah, sure, yes, steve in Rhode Island I don't even know.
Speaker 2:Steve the Hells Angel is a brother of mine in the club and because of that again, we reach out. We have resources all over the place with each other. Our community in our club is amazing, and some of our brothers and Hells Angels. I have so many skills and such talent such a big business and such big corporate mindset that people don't even have a clue on what we're capable of to do on every level of good. It's crazy some of the resources we do have worldwide, it's nuts.
Speaker 1:Steve was great, because when I said I need a wood wall that bends and he was like got it done, got it, no problem, I'll be down next Tuesday. Exactly, you want a flatbed, oh he was actually down at my office within 24 hours with samples oh my gosh it was amazing.
Speaker 2:Oh, that's cool.
Speaker 1:We have half a column still in our warehouse. I mean, you know, anything was possible with him. And that was refreshing, you know, because he actually helped engineer a lot of some of these quite complicated details Like this. One right here of the bar is, um, it's not easy you know, and he, we had to work it in in the field.
Speaker 2:But sure I had to go to providence about two or three times to oversee make sure everything's going great. It couldn't have done it. He actually, I think, did it better than what we expected.
Speaker 1:I agree me anyway. I totally agree for me anyway.
Speaker 2:Um, but but that in the pdr room, the private dining room, is just amazing because of the skill and the design work of it and the idea and the concept. You know how many times, Kristen, we sat trying to figure out how the fuck we were going to make that wall.
Speaker 3:How to make that wall happen. Nope, crumbled up. That's the best part about creative process, because I know as a designer. How many years have you been designing now? Since the late 90s? Okay, so it's been decades, so you've seen like all the things, when you start a project, what is your first point of inspiration?
Speaker 1:Well, really, the person I'm designing it for, okay, like it was really important to have something authentic for Tony and for any client. You see these spaces and restaurants that just kind of rubber stamp what they see in magazines or Pinterest, or what they did in their house.
Speaker 3:I know Pinterest is huge yeah.
Speaker 1:It was important to sit and talk with Tony about. We talked a little bit about that village in Italy and one of the things that I really grasped from it it wasn't. It was like a fort that had some strong curvature on the seawall and that's why it was so important for us to put a curve in here, like I wanted that to reflect where your family's from. And then, on top of that, tony had resources of an artist, a muralist, and he did incredible and it kind of spoke to the Norfolk location.
Speaker 2:And the best part about Joe Hill's he's a Local painter, friend of ours. He does all the motorcycles. He paints our motorcycles and he went from painting gas tanks and fenders to that huge mural, first time he's ever done one. He came over here and drew it all out. It took him months to do do that painting remember.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:But what a fucking job. I have people now that still wonder if that's a decal. It's so precise.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's pretty incredible. And another thing that I really appreciate about you is that you understood like the word, the name Piccadilly came up a lot Like we don't want this to look like a Piccadilly. It is a massive open space.
Speaker 1:Piccadilly came up a lot Like we don't want this to look like a Piccadilly. It is a massive open space, sure, and you had some spatial recognition, like you understood that. So in a space. So let's just some general guidelines here. If you have a restaurant that's 5,000 square feet or smaller, you always want three different seating types within that area. Let's take Luce Norfolk, for instance. Luce Norfolk is very tiny. I don't even know how many square feet it is.
Speaker 2:It's tiny. It's tiny, it's 900. Yeah, it's less than 1,000.
Speaker 1:You have how many seating.
Speaker 2:We have 38 total, but how many seating types, would you say you have. One, no, two, wrong, no, you have four.
Speaker 1:No, you have four. Four, yeah, Okay you have the bar, the high tops, you have that little booth and you have the window ledge True so you get a completely different experience where you sit which is amazing for 900 square feet.
Speaker 2:I'm thinking in height, but yes, you're absolutely right. Two different experiences.
Speaker 1:And here how many do you think you have? Oh shit, here's seven, eight, yeah, exactly, and let's talk about it, we've got six, seven, eight. We've got the bar, We've got the chef's table, We've got a couple lounge seats here. So that's three. We've got the private dining four. We've got open dining. Five. We've got banquets. Six. And then seven is the high tables, Eight would be the outside.
Speaker 3:So eight, that's incredible and what you typically want in a restaurant that's 5,000 square feet or more, is around five or more, and you've nailed it with eight, I mean it's pretty amazing so nine if you count the wine cellar or the wine room.
Speaker 2:Oh, I didn't count that. So if all you out there who are listening to this, who are opening restaurants, thinking about open restaurants or have opened a restaurant and do it better, my goal to get to you this information is to really understand what it is you vision and paying. Just go right to the fucking chaser, you've got to pay somebody proper to do the job right.
Speaker 2:If you're going to nickel and dime it because that's what you think you're going to do you're going to have a nickel and dime product in the end and it's going to be very obvious. It's very hard to try and save a few dollars instead of spend a few more, because if you spend a few more, it's going to come back to you better than if you try to save. The experience is just lame. You've got to have an experience. When you walk into a room, you have to have an experience. The only way you're going to do that is to get out of your own bubble and go look for the advice from the people who know what the fuck they're doing. Heather, that's why I call you. This girl probably sees my phone and wonders whoa God what does he want now?
Speaker 3:What idea does Tony have today?
Speaker 2:Everything. I don't even hesitate anymore. I call Heather. I got this idea. What do you think of this? Because it's a great idea in my mind, but she's always the one who's going to tell me straight up fucking stupid, you know what I'm saying? Or awesome, you know what I mean?
Speaker 1:Right, there's certain things that you need to have in a restaurant to make it memorable, and that's the wow factor. What is it that you can make? And I see so many rubber-stamped type of design like that farmhouse look, for instance. Let's talk about floors, for instance. You really got to think about this when it comes to maintenance and then also the aesthetic value. A lot of people want to put wood floors in a restaurant. Well, that's expensive. And if you want resin impregnated floors that are really going to withstand the type of traffic and furniture over, I mean, that's very, very expensive. So let's really think about this. If you came to me and said we're going to do wood floors, I'd say absolutely not, we don't have the budget for it. What about these plastic wood floors? They're great. Just go down to Home Depot and pick them up, which people do all the time. Then you walk in ribbon-cutting day, you walk into the restaurant and it looks like a Sentara urgent care health clinic.
Speaker 2:It smells like it too, with all the plastic.
Speaker 1:You've got to keep plastic floors out of fine dining. That's a huge thing. Right now I'm seeing.
Speaker 2:It's crazy I think it's budget related or a lack of knowledge or people not going to the proper, they're cutting the corners.
Speaker 1:So if you want to, cut corners like that, just be ready to replace that within 18 months. And the same thing with going to Home Goods or Wayfair I see these chairs everywhere. You are going to have to replace those chairs within 18 months unless you spend a little bit more money. Have a warranty, a five-year warranty. You're going to have to be prepared for that. And I do feel like we did push the limit with quality, Like we did as best as we could with the budget we had.
Speaker 2:And that best that we could, by the way, is better than most people's opportunity.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it is.
Speaker 2:So it's I mean that.
Speaker 1:Well, and we didn't want to half-ass it too Correct. And I appreciate that about you is we had this amazing ceiling detail to go right above us. We couldn't afford it.
Speaker 2:So let's it was a quarter of the budget.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and it just didn't work. So, um we, we both agreed that let's revisit this in a couple of years, you know. Let's see if and and we're we're revisiting it.
Speaker 2:Well, here it is now going. We're in year three and we are revisiting it now so that soon coming to lucha. Secundo is going to be a whole new seal and fixture for that ass oh, good, okay, and and it's almost like more of an installation.
Speaker 1:And the thing is with the ceilings. This is one of the biggest pitfalls with designers is the ceiling is really what you see when you walk into a restaurant, you're right and it sets and flows.
Speaker 2:It flows, sets the tone. It really does.
Speaker 1:And so let's not ignore it. Let's not ignore it. So we set the backdrop with having acoustical ceiling tile, but we're now going to apply this facade soon, with amazing textures on it and lighting. That's coming down a little movement yes, and it's just. I'm excited about it. But I appreciate that you saw the vision and we practice a little restraint on not doing it half ass and just saying let's just do it by layers and let's make.
Speaker 2:We did it really well to where it's beautiful and just saying let's just do it by layers and let's make this work. We did it really well to where it's beautiful, but it's only going to get even better. It's going to be one of those things where people walk in after it being like holy shit, how can it be better?
Speaker 3:You left room to continue the design.
Speaker 1:Exactly, and don't be hard on yourself as a designer. If you can't fit it all in, it'll come. So I I do appreciate that you were patient with that. And another thing that is really important to be patient with is the the seating height along with the table height. Most of the time you're going to buy your tables separately from the vendor of the seats. So when somebody says the seat height is 19 inches a lot of times they're doing that they're taking a measurement of the pitch before it's sat in and then you squish down. Depending on the quality of the foam, you may go down like three or four inches. So if you don't do a mock-up or samples prior which a lot of times you don't have time to do that, you got to be okay. Almost almost every restaurant that I've ever seen there has to be a little tweak after they come in, whether we had a tweak?
Speaker 2:yeah, just, and gets her a little too low yep and it was you know. So I'll be sitting here and somebody would be up here looking down on them. Yeah, and it was. It was uncomfortable, so we had to have that boosted up three inches.
Speaker 1:And you'll see it. Sometimes you can take the bar stool base and take it up and put a maybe quarter inch plywood just to raise it up a little bit more comfortably at a bar. Sometimes you just you're in a crunch, you order these things and you just have to understand and I appreciate that you were patient with that.
Speaker 2:Well, also, there's a lot of lack of experience, so people don't understand that until it's too late. And what we are trying to do what we're trying to do here is have our listeners pay attention to some of this stuff, take their notes and, if you haven't done it before, pay attention to what she's saying and what I've been through that's. That's what you really got to do is learn from people. Pay attention to podcasts like this to teach you or give you hints on how to Resources.
Speaker 2:Resources. This is a resource. This is almost like a networking thing, where you can just sit there and listen to free advice, right right.
Speaker 3:Whether you take it or not, it's your choice. Well, a lot of our listeners like they may already have existing restaurants, so a lot of them go into remodels because again years they're actually doing. Okay, they have some money now so they've got to look at what they can do. You know, with what they already have in place that they can't move or can't afford to move. So I mean, is there for the redesign of that, are there things that people should look out for?
Speaker 1:Sure, and the time span that you gave is excellent. You typically want to take a hospitality space and refresh it between five and seven years. Okay, and whether that's new carpet, new furniture and maybe new bar stools, you know, I do think you want to continually take an inventory of what's breaking down, because it will break down.
Speaker 2:And your regulars are going to notice it and they're going to feel like their money is going to something they're going to feel valued when they go in there. They're going to feel like you care about their experience. Right, there's a lot to it me. I'm about every three years I refresh Luce Norfolk every three years.
Speaker 3:I completely refresh you, refresh you. Always have ideas. He has a creative idea every week for his work.
Speaker 2:I'll re-sod the bar, I'll redo the floors, I'll reupholster everything. Maintain it.
Speaker 3:Everything needs freshness.
Speaker 2:Exactly To me. Paint holds odor, it holds old, so I like to refresh just the paint in the room. It's really big, but if you're out there and you have restaurants and you're the type of person that just doesn't touch it. It's lame man. Why not Right, unless you're so iconic that touching it would ruin it?
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:That's very far and few between, though. You know that's something, them old school places that you've been going to since your grandparents brought you there, but the food is always good, that old Italian place with the checkerboard table.
Speaker 2:And da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da of story, because that's what people are going there for. But if you're in this world trying to be modern and stay relevant in the restaurant world, you've got to remember that there are chefs like me who are going to consistently stay with the flow. We're going to consistently go and I'm going to be your competition all the time. I'm not going to let you sleep.
Speaker 2:Right, so you have to understand that. That's part of the game. You signed up for it and if you probably not going to do it in seven or eight either, and then it's going to slowly, you're going to dwindle.
Speaker 1:You're going to become a has-been. People notice, yeah, people notice, and it starts to break down. I want to talk a little bit about the customer experience, and one place in a restaurant that I think is overlooked quite often is the bathrooms.
Speaker 2:Oh yes, Bathrooms are key.
Speaker 1:I am such a huge judge of freaking bathrooms Same here, and this is the one place. It's such a small, intimate space that you can really pack a lot of punch in bathrooms.
Speaker 2:And people want to go in there and they want to leave. They're going in there to check. They're going into the bathroom, got that. But they're also going in there for a quality check. They're going to check. They're sexy. They're going to check their meter. Guys are making sure their tie is not crooked. Uh, you know shit like that.
Speaker 1:So how are you going to check your sexy in something that's not sexy? You need to feel sexy in this. Well, you need things that are functional. Uh, full-length mirrors lighted mirrors, especially for women, um, and trying to take away the down light. That's horrible. Like um in a bathroom, especially for ladies. You want to be able to check your face.
Speaker 1:But with bathrooms generally there's only a few doors. In a restaurant, this is the perfect place to do a massive door. You know you only have a few like and do beautiful hardware. These are lost opportunities. I see all the time in restaurants is the bathroom, the doors, even outside, like you only have what three or four doors in this space. So even in the private dining and I know I'm moving on but with the doors there, we made sure those two doors were leather upholstered with nail heads. I mean it didn't cost that much money and the wow factor is incredible.
Speaker 3:Incredible yeah.
Speaker 1:And we were able to seek out these awesome Cobra door handles.
Speaker 2:It makes you feel like you're in a place you deserve to be in, that you can't get anywhere else. Right, Like if you're going to have and spend thousands of dollars on a private dining experience. That room realistically makes you feel like you're being catered to in a private, very sexual way. It's just sexy.
Speaker 3:I totally agree. It's just beautiful. It's not a curtain like closing the curtain on a restaurant. I mean we've seen that in some restaurants where it's like a shitty door they close and you're like oh, you feel like you're at the like the the airport lounge, you know event space Cause they just close this ugly door and yeah, it's terrible.
Speaker 1:Yeah and so um, those are some of the places where you can just create experiences. Another thing that I've seen recently right outside of Scottsdale I don't know if you've been to the Wrigley Mansion before.
Speaker 1:I've heard of it, but I haven't been there now. So there's this great restaurant called Christopher's and it's for the guest experience. It's very small. It's a Michelin star restaurant. They only take a few people at a time and they clearly are. Well, I look at it and going this doesn't cost that much money to do, but it's an incredible experience. They only have a chef and one server and they were like maybe three or four tables. Each table had like a little jewelry box, almost Like you pull it out and it had all your silverware and the silverware was just, I mean, it's just incredible. They were pieces of art and it was set for every course, um that you were going to have. So you know, it was kind of very experiential, um, you know, you pulled it out, you're like, oh my gosh, look at those chopsticks, you know, and it was a talking piece, it was very cool. So you were kind of like setting the table for yourself, um, although you're spending thousands of dollars to serve yourself.
Speaker 1:But it was amazing, Like we didn't think it was, and it was very intimate because you didn't have a lot of people. It wasn't like that French service with lots of people behind you.
Speaker 2:Sure.
Speaker 1:But it was very much the design and the glide. It was like a sexy glide of the drawer and the table. But it was very small things that it could make an experience, you know monumental. You know so very small things that it could make an experience monumental. So those are things that I think are clever. You just take some time to think about and talk through your service.
Speaker 2:The best part about you is that you are out all the time. You're traveling and your job and the contracts you accept and stuff bring you everywhere. And I know one thing about you as well is that if you're going to work on an airport wing or something like that, you're also at a restaurant after hours of work and you're looking at the design there.
Speaker 2:You're always taking in, absorbing. You're always studying what's new, what's trending, and you get excited about it and you bring it to me. Even when I'm not in the process of building anything or anything like that, you still send me pictures of look at this shit and I'm like, oh yes, let's open a new place.
Speaker 3:So I can put that in.
Speaker 2:So there's so many great ideas that we have between the two of us and I really encourage everyone out there to find somebody you can work with, every department, whether it's your CPA or your, your bar manager or your, but mostly your design your interior design is so important. And put some faith in them and don't be so fucking hardheaded. You know, stand your ground, but in them and don't be so fucking hard-headed. You know, stand your ground, but don't be so ignorant to not pay attention to what they're saying. Trust in the fact that they know what they're doing and they've gone around doing it, and sooner or later you'll learn to trust them and then you'll be asking them more than you actually believe it, yeah, so it'd be like them asking you or telling you how not to cook their food.
Speaker 2:You know I'm saying it's right, you know, just trust just trust right and that's that's what people need to do. Your money's important and find someone who's going to care about your money like you are.
Speaker 3:Or, as well, we always say, like get feedback, go, do your research. It helps you because you also have a GC like general contracting background and you know projects, you know how to build things, so you kind of can look at it from both angles of okay, it's possible, but this is what it's going to take to make it happen. So you have to find the people who literally have. You know, maybe it's you know, it's great having your young designers who have fresh ideas that are a year out of school, but they haven't seen all the mistakes that have cost money.
Speaker 1:You are a hundred percent correct with that, and one of the pitfalls that I see with designers right now is, if you have an idea and you cannot draw it and understand how it comes together, it's not an idea, it's it's. It's not fleshed out, you, um? So what we really strive to do is, uh, like somebody comes to me and says hey, and one of my designers, hey, what if we do this? I'm like we'll draw it. How does show me how one would build it so we can put numbers to it.
Speaker 3:You know that's you have to be a great idea, but I've seen you can't make it happen without tearing down or you have a structural element that's like load bearing in your restaurant. We can't change that, so you have to work around it Exactly.
Speaker 1:No, it's that is. It is a challenge sometimes in the design field. Yeah, I'm sure.
Speaker 1:And it must be a challenge for you too. When someone's always telling you no to every idea you come up with, that's got to suck. There is a lot of ego with restaurant owners or any business owner, and, let's face it, that's how they got there is because of their confidence. So you do have to keep that in the back of your mind and playing that delicate dance of not offending them or their lack of knowledge. But you know, just working through that.
Speaker 2:I think there's a science and a dance. Once again, there's a dance to standing your ground and also letting them talk. There's a you have to. You know, as an owner, you have to let it go, but you have to stand your ground because it's going to make you go back to the drawing board and think and that's going to create more ideas all the way around. And stand your ground because it's going to make you go back to the drawing board and think and that's going to create more ideas all the way around.
Speaker 2:And if you guys can have a good balance on that together and not look at it negative every time someone says no, I don't like it or something, if you can open up your mind, go back to the drawing board and then come back, you're gonna. That's what that's when it opens up. So ease down on the ego and let just just communicate, talk. No one's going to be perfect in their decisions at all. There's always going to be something and you're always going to argue. Maybe you're standing around too much, but you've got to chill the fuck out sometimes and just talk it out.
Speaker 1:If you have those basic directives, like we said in the very beginning of this, is that, hey, what makes a restaurant design successful? That the restaurant's profitable and that there's a good customer experience. That typically answers some of the conflict or the challenges Like is this going to add to profitability or the customer experience? And a lot of times it's no, it's the designer's ego. Oh, I wanted to use this somewhere in a space, somewhere, so you kind of reel that in, so it works both ways, sure.
Speaker 3:So do you have any kind of last fire-off questions before we like are there any other things that you can think of to ask that? Maybe someone who's looking to redesign their space would ask yeah, sure.
Speaker 2:When it comes to restaurant jobs, restaurant contracts, what do you not accept? What are your couple of key notes? I'm not going to touch that. What are a couple of those?
Speaker 1:Red flags? Maybe Red flags, or what type of people? Well, we had one recently, do you remember?
Speaker 2:Yes, is that what you're talking about? No, no, in general. In general, you can use it, though I can say this isn't a project for me.
Speaker 3:You guys need to not do this right now.
Speaker 1:So somebody came to me probably six months ago and said he actually sounded like you. I thought it was you on the phone and he was like hey, I'm opening a Italian restaurant. Okay, I wanted to look just like Luce and I was like oh well, that's not gonna happen, sir yeah you know, and he's like I'm gonna be serving very similar things and. I mean he literally wanted to rubber stamp what you have and um and I said welcome to the fucking party.
Speaker 1:Buddy, everyone does, yeah, and um, good luck I, I think, um, I would think that most interior designers or business owners would have a little bit of integrity. Um, you know, maybe I've lost out on, I don't know let's say, twenty five thousand dollars, but that's okay. I wasn't going to do that. Like um, I felt like this was a culmination of of you right and and um, and your, where your experiences took you and and our, our journey together of creating this.
Speaker 2:I wasn't gonna, it wasn't so did this person open one yet I don't know okay so there's one red flag don't don't try and copy somebody else's idea.
Speaker 1:Well, and he came right out and said it, which was weird so that's very ballsy, yeah, so I was like no, I don't think so.
Speaker 1:So that, um, that's happened, um really, uh, understanding someone's budget too, like let's really talk numbers, like what is it? And and you know, we don't sell, we try not to sell product, so you know, I'm not in here to sell you anything other than a beautiful design. So, um, when somebody is going to hold that number and I'm like, no, I really need to know, so we can really put you know a construction estimate together.
Speaker 2:I think they got.
Speaker 3:They're holding the poker cards back yeah, yeah so budget is yeah, so that can be determined big and if, um, if it's a panel of people, that is.
Speaker 1:I try to stay away from that. That is hard when you are designing by committee. It's almost impossible. Now with country clubs, you do have to do that and that is challenging.
Speaker 1:That is one of probably the hardest things, because you're opinionated people and there's a lot of them, yeah, and then not just with country clubs, but if you design through committee, sometimes you want to find out who's on those committees. Like, for instance, there was one restaurant we were working on and somebody was a vendor of kitchen equipment so yeah, of course my design was stupid or the dining room was too big Conflict of interest yeah. So sometimes you got to be transparent.
Speaker 3:I think wherever you're at.
Speaker 2:You got to vet a little bit too. Yes, you do. Yeah, Because you don't want to sign up for a shitty ass experience either. No, it can be't want to sign up for a shitty-ass experience either, and it can be. If you sign up. If you're six months into a build man and living miserably, your creative juices flow, goes away and you don't even want to?
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's exhausting.
Speaker 2:It's like being a chef.
Speaker 3:If we have to cook so many times for the, so you want it to have the right numbers yeah, so yeah, success comes in the final product.
Speaker 2:Really sure you know what I mean. And well, that's awesome. Where can these people find you, whether you got any social media stuff or any of your companies, what you got?
Speaker 1:uh, so my company is within interior design. Uh, we are located in norfolk. Uh, on instagram, uh, we're pretty active there Within Interior Design. You know com Excuse me, it's WithinDesignscom Within Interior Design was already taken.
Speaker 2:But yeah, we're located in Norfolk.
Speaker 3:We'll put all that below too, so you can click on the link to check out the designs, because you have some pretty cool ones on there. Oh, thank you, they're amazing, so we do country clubs, yachts.
Speaker 2:We do a lot of federal work a lot, a lot of federal work, and you wouldn't probably. You just did a fancy yacht not long ago. Oh, I did. Fancy schmancy, yeah, I did. Still can't talk about that one.
Speaker 1:I still yeah, there's an NDA, yeah, but yeah, it's been good, though I'm happy to take a look at anybody's project. I'm happy to take a look at anybody's project. We do have a team of six designers, soon to be seven. We are on the first floor and the second floor is my construction team, which is great because I have a reach back of like hey, heather, how much is this going to cost? You know we were talking about this second phase. You know I could just go upstairs and go okay, you know what's the structural number on this? What's this?
Speaker 3:You know we could really put some real numbers on it. Sure, and it's all direct, it's right there.
Speaker 2:And then and you deliver instantly. Your team is very fast, very responsive and probably sometimes too responsive because it's like holy shit. You know, but it's a wonderful thing.
Speaker 3:I love it.
Speaker 2:Well, that's great. So if you want some help in this area from Heather and her team, look her up. She gave you the plugs. If you're looking to do something like Luce or Luce Secundo, or take ideas that have already been out there, go fuck yourself. You're never going to succeed. You're a loser, and I hope your shit doesn't work well.
Speaker 1:We can come up with new ones.
Speaker 3:Yeah, they can come up with new designs, but a great resource, great resource. Find her to come up with new shit. Don't copy anybody out there. It's lame, yeah, okay, yeah, all right, like subscribe. Drop your questions below. We'll feed those back to you so if anybody has any random questions, we can always answer those so this was awesome.
Speaker 2:Thanks for all your love you. Thank you, love you, ciao for now.
