Burnt Hands Perspective
This is a raw and unfiltered look into the state of the restaurant industry as a whole, powered by longtime friends Chef/Owner Antonio Caruana and former bartender turned News Anchor/TV Host Kristen Crowley.
Representing all aspects of the industry from the front to the back of the house we will dig into the juiciest stories and pull from decades of experience in one of the sexiest and most exciting industries in the world...the food and beverage industry.
From international chefs, sommeliers, industry pros, and so much more, this show will cover all of it without a filter. You turn up the volume; we'll turn up the heat.
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Burnt Hands Perspective
Uncorking 37 years of Wine Knowledge w/ Sommelier Marc Sauter: Myths, Facts, and Testing
Marc Sauter, sommelier at Zoe's Steak and Seafood Restaurant in Virginia Beach, shares his 37-year journey in the wine industry and offers insights into wine certifications, tasting techniques, and creating exceptional dining experiences through thoughtful wine service.
• Marc has been a sommelier since age 22 and now oversees Zoe's award-winning wine program with 1,600 selections
• Wine certifications through the Court of Master Sommeliers include four progressively difficult levels
• Only 311 people worldwide have achieved Master Sommelier status in the organization's 58-year history
• The best sommeliers focus on building customer trust by respecting budgets and offering appropriate wine suggestions
• Good wine service isn't about selling one expensive bottle but creating relationships that bring customers back
• When pairing food with wine, chefs should remember that wine cannot change, but food can be adjusted
• Half bottles are excellent options for solo diners or those wanting to experience premium wines affordably
• Creating study groups with like-minded individuals is crucial for advancing through wine certification levels
• A sommelier's job is to make wine approachable and enjoyable, not intimidating
Visit Zoe's Steak and Seafood Restaurant on 19th Street in Virginia Beach, next to the convention center. Reservations are recommended and can be made up to two years in advance.
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There we go, salami Huh.
Speaker 2:Salami time Meat cheese wine and fucking pappy. Yep, we're good. What is better than that? This is a good day.
Speaker 1:For all you guys who don't know, when we're talking in this show a lot we talk about the restaurant industry.
Speaker 2:I got a mouthful of food you really eat with your mouth full. Yeah, why not? Let's lead that way.
Speaker 1:Sorry, mark, got some beautiful salami here in my head right now Going for it.
Speaker 2:They're in my head right now, going for it With salami, always comes wine.
Speaker 1:Italian heritage, italian lifeline, italian blood. Not only, though. That goes throughout the history, kristen. Why don't you say a few words so I can swallow this, so you can chew?
Speaker 2:You truly did this whole situation so we're going to take a moment and let our guest introduce himself. He's just smacking away on some store-bought meat and cheese. But yeah, mark, thank you for being on with us today. Obviously a legend, a staple in the culinary community here in Hampton Roads too. But you are going to kind of take us on. We're going to go through some journeys as we talk about wine, wine certifications and all the fun things. So you introduce yourself, tell everybody your lovely. Well, it's a long resume so I can't even get through it, it's extreme.
Speaker 3:Thank you, guys. It's a pleasure to be here. Thank you so much for having me. I love listening to your show and it's instrumental in one of the greatest things in Hampton Roads going on right now for the resume industry.
Speaker 1:Thank you, that's good to hear.
Speaker 3:I'm a guy like you. For sure, I'm a sommelier Zoe's Steak and Seafood Restaurant in Virginia Beach. I've been in the area for a long time I hate to say how many years, but like 37 years in the industry, and I've been a sommelier since I was 22 years old.
Speaker 1:That's crazy, because no one at 22 years old is worried about salmon typically Not typically Not a lot of them, especially back then.
Speaker 3:Yeah Well, it's kind of crazy. So I was at a Galleria restaurant, if anyone remembers that restaurant in downtown Norfolk. And I remember I gave my business cards and I had to pull out a dictionary and pull out how to spell sommelier and it was before I joined the Quartermaster Sommeliers. So it was like the very, very beginning. But I took over the wine program when I was 22 years old.
Speaker 1:So at this point in time, you're a sommelier by word and definition, not so much by certification.
Speaker 3:Yeah, absolutely. And you know, to be a sommelier is like chefs. I mean, people throw it around easy and sometimes it's very, very serious. And so you know it's frustrating to hear people say, oh yeah, I'm a chef, I've got a hot dog stand on the corner, or I'm a sommelier and I'm you know, I have two bottles of wine on my wine list, but you know, in the quarterbacks sommel until you pass the second level. So it's a journey, a path, and you should be able to be respectful to that, and sometimes that respect gets lost and we're trying to get too caught up in that. But it is a serious thing, I know in the world of chefs as well. It's almost the same balance there and it's frustrating, sure.
Speaker 1:So when you compare the two, I went and I got my level one right. I didn't realize how severe it was to call yourself level two until you got it, until you go to the level one course. You got to do the studying, Then you got to go there for two days. You got to go through the courses, then you got to take your test and hopefully you pass this test and you can study for it all you want to. But when you're there taking it you realize how much stuff you didn't study. You know that you didn't realize the spirits, the drinks, the bourbons, all the ports, the Madeiras, things like that Big, big world. There's a big world and it's just at the very beginning. So I can only imagine as we go. And the reason I went and got it is because A I love wine. I've been dealing with wine all my life and I absolutely love it. B I have over almost a half a million dollars invested in my wine program and I think I I should be at some level of certification or even recognition.
Speaker 1:When you're going to purvey that type of wine on other people, people have to trust you and know what you're doing. So my next goal, my next stop, would be level two, but we'll talk about that in a few minutes, let's. So you got Zoe's. If people aren't watching this aren't all from here. So Zoe's Steakhouse in Virginia Beach is one of the premier steakhouses and one of the premier restaurants in Virginia Beach. Virginia Beach is one of the premier steakhouses and one of the premier restaurants in Virginia Beach. It's been there for a long time. It's a staple of higher end fine dining and the wine program there, as we all know, is winning the awards. And not only does it win the awards, it stands true to it. And if you're going to go somewhere to enjoy real steak, real food, real experience with education, we all know that you go to Zoe's and that's where you bring it.
Speaker 2:I appreciate that.
Speaker 1:And you have ownership in Zoe's. I do, yes, so you are a owner sommelier, and you're there all the time. In fact, your daughter runs the bar there. Yes, she's on board. Yes, she's on board, right. So, whether she runs or not, excuse me if I'm miswording, but I know she's there. What? Excuse me if I'm miswording, but I know she's there.
Speaker 3:What are we drinking here, my man? What do we got? We're doing a little Cabernet Sauvignon from Napa Valley. This is called Memento Mori. It's a new project. Memento Mori it's Latin for remember mortality, remember you're going to die. The owner.
Speaker 1:So basically, smell the roses while you're drinking this.
Speaker 3:Enjoy. Yeah, absolutely, Take every. Don't take every day for granted, but enjoy every day. The owner, a good friend of mine, Hayes Drumright, got cancer at 21 years old. He was in college, he was a swimmer and thought he was going to die. So he said it was the worst and best thing that ever happened to him. He lived and he just thinks every day you got to enjoy every day, Don't let go of passion.
Speaker 1:And how old is he now? Did he make it? He's 53. So, from 20, whatever he was when he came down with the cancer, thinking he was going to die, that's not a lot of time to turn your life around and produce a 100-point wine, because that's what this is, correct, perfect scoring wine. Perfect scoring wine right here, luce Secundo. Not the first time Won't be the last, but I'm glad to be sharing it with you 100.
Speaker 2:100. 100. We'll go for it. So we get to sip and then chat.
Speaker 3:I'm on a 100-point show, wow.
Speaker 1:I think our assistant Nikki needs to grab a glass and get a taste of this.
Speaker 3:She would highly enjoy this. Please, guys, why don't you share them?
Speaker 1:Come on grab a glass. Yeah, you need to taste this. This is absolutely amazing. That is beautiful. So Napa Valley big, strong, different regions in Napa. A lot of people recognize Napa for what it is. I used to be a non-fan of Napa because I grew up with old style wines, old world wines. My problem with Napa in the late 90s, early 2000s into the mid 2000s was the winemaker style and winemaker influence at the time was that heavy American oak and I just couldn't get past it. No matter how good the juice was, the grape was, the press, the maceration, any step of the way, I had a hard time getting through it because I just could not get right with that American oak. And it seems it's pulling back off. They're moving to French or old American or something. Am I wrong on that, mark? No, no.
Speaker 3:I think you're dead on. So I mean, we started learning about wine and the Europeans would use oak, but they use neutral oak. So it's a balance. It's like a chef creating a dish you have to have a balance in it, all the flavors have to intertwine and work together and it's that perfect harmony and balance which you're trying to achieve. That's what 100.1 is, so it's not too oaky, it's not too less of oak. And so, yeah, we in the late 90s, early 2000s, we were over-oaking a lot of the wines and that's a true statement, and they weren't in balance and they were just rough. And now we've really learned how to kind of tailor that in, draw that back and work with the harmony and the balance.
Speaker 1:And it was that over-oaking that you're talking about is true, but for those who don't know what exactly the flavor profile I'm going for, is that a little bit of a spice vanilla at the end of it that always brought out that sweet vanilla and finish to everything that I just couldn't get through. So I don't know if it was the oak or the American oak that was getting me, because if you get that out of a French oak in a Cab Franc or something like that, it's good, right yeah.
Speaker 3:Well, the American oak is the flavors of dill, coconut and vanilla. French oak is going to be cinnamon and vanilla and black pepper, and so when they over-oak it, you get that balance. You don't want a glass full of vanilla, you don't want a glass full of black pepper, you want to build it with blackberry, black cherry, black assise and cedar malt. So you want those flavors wrapped around. So the oak should be intertwined and balanced. We almost can't detect the oak, so it's all in there together.
Speaker 3:If you can taste the oak. It's too much the oak can almost.
Speaker 1:So it's all in there together, right, you can taste the correct. It's too much. The oak can almost, if it's done, probably like this. Obviously it's 100 point wine and we're not the first ones to admit it. I mean so much more knowledge and skill than I gave it that rating. I'm just drinking and agreeing with them, but when I sip it, deductively it all comes down to a napa cab, without question. But I'm not getting the. I'm getting more of a. If I were to have to say something, I'm getting a very, very light smoke, more so than I am a straightforward oak, yeah.
Speaker 3:The oak is there, but it's almost undetectable. It's right you get the berries and the fruit. They play the. They're winning the race.
Speaker 1:Right. In this case, the oak did its job. Yeah, exactly, the oak did its job and emphasized everything else it supported. It didn't lead.
Speaker 1:Yeah great, exactly Perfect. So you have knowledge, and anyone watching who likes wine or drinks wine or has any focus on wine, this man here has nonstop knowledge, not only about the wine, but it's amazing to me how you can sit there and talk about every you. You know a lot of producers, you know a lot of vintages, you know you know a lot about what's going on in the wine world, more so than what your qualifications even would say on paper. Right, I think that you're what you have going on and what you bring to this area is extreme, and you're you being in this area for us, almost like you said, our show was doing something for this area. I think your level of wine knowledge and wine expectation in this area is crucial for us. It keeps me, as a guy going, looking up and doing it, so glad to have you talking about it.
Speaker 1:So if you were to go, I went in, got my level one, okay, went to the Court of Masters and, like I've already explained why. So when I was doing it, I was going online. I'm looking for anything I could to get me enhanced better, to learn more, to get a little bit more knowledge, any hint I can get, as everybody does. We all do it. Right. You want to have the most info you can. Going into a subject, right? Someone who's going in, going through the stages, stages, right, if you're going through the levels, give us a little insight of what people can expect. Going into level one. And then let's go into level two with the, with the blind tastings what do you recommend there? And then if you're going into level three, where now we're getting up hard and then you're going up from there, which is that's a whole nother conversation, so why the fuck is it so hard?
Speaker 3:Well, to be a master sommelier. In the last 58 years or so, there's been just barely over 300 people in the world who have passed all four levels, so it's considered to be the hardest test in the world to pass so 500, I'm sorry.
Speaker 1:58 years, 58 years. John 50 years, that's the court has been around. Is that what you're saying? So the court of mass has been around for 58 years and only in 58 years, only 300 people have been.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it's just like 311, I think right now.
Speaker 1:Wow.
Speaker 3:That's crazy. So the test is level three and level four. The test is offered once a year. You have to apply for the test and when you accept to take the test, the test was disadministered in Portland, Oregon, and one of my students just took his test, Simon. I'm going to give him a shout-out and this is his fourth time taking the test. The record is 16 times taking it before passing, so it's the last level.
Speaker 1:The record meaning that was the fastest one. No, no, meaning that was how long it took the most.
Speaker 3:He took 16 years, 16 tries on the last level before he didn't give up. Okay, finally passed Gotcha. So yeah, simon, a good buddy and friend of mine, he's been a student of mine for over 10 years and I helped him pass level two, level three and he surpassed me already. But he's hardworking a lot of the time to study. But he's hardworking a lot of the time to study. And he passed his first section of the Master Sommelier Master Diploma just last month.
Speaker 3:And there was 82 people who took the test. Ten people passed that section, so the other 72 hope they scored high enough to get an invitation for next year. And of those ten, simon's one of those ten. They've got two more sections he has to complete this year and if he does he will be Master of Sommelier 312, I guess. Wow that's insane.
Speaker 1:That's crazy. And if he doesn't, does he have to start all over again, or does that first section always hold?
Speaker 3:No, so it's a great question. It's a very interesting and cool question. So there's three sections to take. There's a service exam, written oral exam and then blind tasting. If you pass the first one, the written and oral exam, which Simon passed, you don't have to take that test for two more years. If you pass the other two sections Within three years, you're gonna master it. If you don't pass it within three years, you reset, you start over again. So if you took it nine times, you would've reset twice.
Speaker 1:Right, wow, so that's the master. The odds of the normal average wine enthusiast going for their master is. I'm not going to lie to you. So let's stop sugarcoating shit. You probably ain't got a better chance of getting struck by lightning.
Speaker 2:You have a better chance of winning a lottery. Yeah.
Speaker 1:So if you have, if you think you're just going to go be a master psalm, you better start studying now and don't even worry about that until you get through the other three levels. First, because it's almost like a video game. Before you get to the master boss man, you better learn how to play right, because you're going to be in front of that controller for a long time.
Speaker 1:So level one what's your recommendation? Level one it is what it is. You've got to start somewhere, right? That's what I did. That's where I'm at. What do you think? What do you recommend for level one? So level one is called introduction.
Speaker 3:So you're dipping your foot in the water, and I love introduction. I love that section. It is so much information.
Speaker 1:You go there for a two-day lecture, and't? For me it's very true.
Speaker 3:I thought I knew what I knew, and I knew a lot.
Speaker 3:No, I'm like you do level one, because you know I think Chef should do level ones. I think Waiters, bartenders, managers in the restaurant, we should learn about the most about food as possible and that balance. I mean you don't go to restaurant just to eat, you know, go to restaurant just to drink. It's a combination, the marriage both. That's what makes a beautiful experience, the food and the wine together. So I applaud all chefs who want to do level one, level two, keep on going level three if they can. You know I think it's very important. So I brought the quartermaster sommelier to Virginia Beach seven times in the last 14 years and at one point in time I had two of my chefs, all my bartenders, all my servers and I even had a server assistant, a bus pass level one.
Speaker 1:But we it was intense and what you mean by bringing it to Virginia Beach, meaning you brought the opportunity for it to be tested here in our area. Yeah, yes, sir.
Speaker 3:So I requested to have them come to Virginia Beach. They politely asked for a $50,000 guarantee that we'd bring enough students, because they want to send their masters set the test up, come down here and then have no one take the test. That would have wasted their time.
Speaker 1:Sure.
Speaker 3:So we had a guarantee that we'd have $50,000 worth of people to take the test.
Speaker 1:And that's a lot of people. Yeah, $50,000 at about $700 a clip, right, yeah, so that's a lot of people yeah, but it was great.
Speaker 3:And then the second year they actually called me back and said, hey, can we come back Because we had a great turnout. We maxed out the turnout and it was great. So a lot of people locally, selfishly, a lot of people on my staff. We had a guy flying from Alaska. We had people flying from North Dakota, from Maine. Virginia Beach is not bad either, you know.
Speaker 1:What are you feeling about bringing it back again for another time? Yeah, yeah, level one.
Speaker 3:I'm definitely going to do it. I'm hoping that 2026 spring, April, May, we'll do level one and level two back to back. Cool, so you know so you're saying I got a chance. You definitely have a chance.
Speaker 2:Level two. Yeah, I know For level one. I mean, what type of prep goes into that if you're going to come to that?
Speaker 3:So level one, there's no blind tasting involved. It's just a matter of learning all about wines and spirits from around the entire world. And so when you sign up, they give you a prep book, and I would highly advise reading that book. Front to back three times A lot of information there and almost all information is on the test, but it is to be well-rounded completely. So that's very, very important to be able to just not understand Napa, not just understand Italy, not just understand France, the whole world of wine.
Speaker 1:So there's a lot out there. The good part about the level one Kristen is that you? Learn a lot about the technical things that you wouldn't really notice, like wind flow over mountains, yeah, how it affects, uh, flatlands versus slopes, um, why, who, what, why and where is level one. It's kind of like the introduction to all things grape wine and stuff like that whereas as you go up you're you're getting more into the what's in the glass. Now you know what I mean, and understanding it and and and picking it apart but, level one.
Speaker 1:You're doing a lot of research on the development of the grape, where they come from, the history of it, realizing that Romans put fucking grapes all over the world. There's a lot of information that you'd get that you really wouldn't pay attention to because you're so stuck in the bottle.
Speaker 2:Oh, this is great, you drink the juice right.
Speaker 1:You're not really focusing on what the vineyards are going through or things like that.
Speaker 2:I love that. I wish, I mean I think that as, and hopefully most restaurants in this area, because again, when I was in the restaurants, I was at restaurants who had amazing wine lists I worked with great. So I wish they would have said to us like, as the bartenders, as you're like, I want you to go and do this, because I think that again you're right, any knowledge that adds to the overall experience is beneficial to the restaurant it's always I pay for.
Speaker 3:All my employees take the test. Um, we say we pay for it if you pass. You know like I don't want them to go there and go up to new york or someplace to take the test and not really care about it. But they're gonna pass. I'm gonna pay for their for the exam and it only helps out the restaurant.
Speaker 1:And when I brought the court to when you do that, mark, do you have a? Because I consider that too. I just need someone to pass. But if you have they pass, do you have a contract that they need to at least be with you for a year after, or something to make sense?
Speaker 3:of it.
Speaker 1:Because if you pay for it, they pass and then they go work for your competitor. You also just amplify that whole problem.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so my business partner Bill and Joni. They were saying why do you help out the people in the area? And I train people and I don't charge them any money to help mentor them to do level one, level two, and they're like, why would you do that for competitive restaurants? Well, it kind of raised the bar for the whole area. You're right. Perfect If you're confident.
Speaker 1:What you're saying right now exudes confidence, because if you're confident, what you're saying right now exudes confidence. Because if you're confident like I am, I don't give a fuck what's going on outside. The more of us that are out there, the better our area is going to be, absolutely. People always say why isn't James Baird here, why isn't fucking Michelin here, all that stuff? It's because you have to have a community around you.
Speaker 2:You have to have a community.
Speaker 1:You've got to build it. And a lot of people around here. Their ego is too big to let it go to other people and that sucks. But anyway, let's keep going For me.
Speaker 3:I have to be humble and I have to be just down to earth. I'm willing to share my knowledge and the original sommeliers 30, 40 years ago. They were very guarded with information. They wouldn't share their information and look down on people, and that's BS, total BS in my opinion. Look down on people and that's BS, total BS in my opinion. So I share all my information. I help train people. I don't charge anything If they're serious they want to learn. So the more we get certified sommeliers in this area, the better this area is going to be. So when I started off gosh, like 16 years ago, bringing the court here, there was four or five certified sommeliers level twos and now we're around 40, 45 in the area and that helps the area out.
Speaker 3:And so yes you know it does. If you train someone, they leave. They become your competitor. But you know that just makes you stronger. It pushes you further and further.
Speaker 1:Well, not only that, but they're always going to remember their mentor, whether they like you or not. They're always going to have that in the back of their head, that they got it from you and, if they're going, going to know that you're there competing as well. So they're going to respect that, hopefully. Yeah, hopefully. I don't even know, well, I guess what I'm saying, mark, is not hopefully or not. It's irrelevant, because whether they admit it to themselves or not is not what I'm talking about. Hopefully they admit it to themselves, but it's always going to be there, whether they admit it or not. It's always going to be haunting them at some point in time that you are the reason they are where they are, whether they like you, don't like you, but most of them are going to respect it. Man, like you said, they're going to respect it and they're going to and they're going to. It's great for the area. You know. It builds up the comp. That builds up the competition period, right.
Speaker 1:So, level one tips you're watching what give? Give us like three good things. What do you think for level one?
Speaker 3:This may sound silly but there's a simple book called Wine for Dummies. Wine for Dummies is easy, it's short. You can read the chapters. The chapters are two or three pages. They're not that too critically in-depth, they're just a gentle brush over and get a little comfort there. That's a great book to look over.
Speaker 3:Getting into groups of people who are like-minded, who really want to do the same thing that will accelerate you the fastest. Have people who are going to share your information, your knowledge, at level 1, 2, 3, and 4. At level 4, there are study groups that get together for years at a time and they push each other. Like you study Italy for a month and you share your information with me, I'll study Spain, christian, you study France, and we get together and share information. So study groups, people who are like-minded, who have the same direction of going very, very important, and I think you know you.
Speaker 3:Look at what wine can do in this industry. As a server, we're all here to make money. We all want to be successful. We want to have a happy life. You want to give yourself a up for raise in the restaurant business as a waiter or bartender. Learn about wine. You can double your income by learning about wine. I've got a good buddy of mine um in las vegas on new year's eve a couple years ago he had an eight top. I'm sorry, eight people um 443 000 tab. How much that was food only 10 000 the rest was wine.
Speaker 1:That was a thomas jefferson and crew thomas jefferson and boys.
Speaker 3:So I mean that's pretty incredible what you can do for a wine tab. You know, uh, we had uh, um. So I mean wine balances against the food. It helps, uh, accelerate the two together. And if you want to learn about spirits, wine it only helps. Your tab helps, everyone's tab's tab. Bottom line of the restaurant. I had a $125,000 night at our small little 60-seat restaurant with 20 people. How do you get there without wine?
Speaker 1:You can't.
Speaker 3:It definitely can be a friend.
Speaker 1:It is a friend, and it's not only a friend to us as business owners, but it's a friend to those who's drinking it, because you get really friendly the more you drink of it. People who can spend the money on it at that level are getting a lot more friendly spending the money. It is what. It is right. The wine was never designed. Well, that's not right. Let me back the fuck up on what I'm saying. Wine may have been designed to cheap drink back in the day yes. However, the growth of it, the systems, the rating yes, however, the growth of it, the systems, the rating systems, the bottling that wasn't designed to necessarily be cheap. Wine was designed out of necessity. So, yes, it was cheap. There's a grape, let's turn into alcohol, let's get fucked up and then refining that motherfucker so you can actually make it palatable, right, yeah, and make it sellable and make it a thing, an iconic thing around the world of following. It is not cheap. Wine is not a cheap hobby.
Speaker 2:No, it's not, it's not.
Speaker 3:It can be inexpensive, but it can definitely be expensive. And you know I don't want to sound snobbish my restaurant. If I walk around and I see a bottle of wine at every table I think it was a $30 bottle If I see a wine at every table, I know they know how to dine. They have food and wine together. They're having a great experience. It's going to be elevated and they're going to enjoy.
Speaker 1:They know what to do Exactly right? I don't give a shit. Look, it's always nice to see a fucking Dominus or a Sessakaya go out and feel good about that, and that's just. That's just the main staple words. Those are the name brands that we know of at that level. Yeah, there's so many more that are. When you see them go out, you're like oh wow, you know what I mean. But if I see a bottle of wine, like you, people are there to enjoy what you're offering, and it doesn't matter how much money is in their pocket.
Speaker 1:It's about the experience so if a 45 bottle on my menu, which I have for people like that, I want everyone to come in here. I'm going to choose with my sommelier the best $45 bottle we can get so they can experience that and I want them to enjoy. So to me I don't really care what's on the table. As far as it, you know, of course, we look at the people who spend huge and buy six, you know, $600,000 bottles.
Speaker 1:Everyone looks at that and be like okay, cool, cool but, that's far and few between in comparison to the people who are actually out there just celebrating an anniversary on a budget and they want to enjoy themselves. That's what I really love to see. So so you and I have a lot in common. When I go look at your cellar, mine is pretty big and unique in there. I'll show it to you when we turn the light on. But it's nothing in comparison to what you have with your level of collection. You have a level of collection to you. You have a lot of progressive vintages. You have a lot of progression going on. You have a lot of things we have 1,600 selections of wine, that's a lot.
Speaker 3:For a small restaurant, that's a lot for a big restaurant.
Speaker 3:Yeah, 1,600 selections. Wines that are $30 to $30,000 a bottle and I'm currently sold out of my $25 and $30,000 bottles right now, trying to get some more back in, but they're very hard to come by and so we have wines that are as young as 2024 and as old as 1834. I'd proudly say I have wines at $10 a glass up to $450 a glass. I mean, you have to have something for everybody. And so you know, at one point in time, pre-covid, we did a thing called the Funky Fives Functions of Five. We had 10 bottles of white and 10 bottles of red that you could enjoy between $5 to $5.55,. You know the early bird kind of type of thing, for $10 a bottle.
Speaker 3:People are like you have a $10 bottle of wine on your list. I'm like I do. I'm like is it any good? I'm like I wouldn't have it in the restaurant if I wouldn't make myself.
Speaker 1:That's right.
Speaker 3:So I mean, wine doesn't have to be expensive, it certainly can be. But you know, to me, once again, wine is definitely my life, but when you put wine together with food, people are going to enjoy the food so much more.
Speaker 1:Yeah, exactly, and people look at those numbers and they shake their head. But however you spend your money, whatever drives you is your business, and I think wine does that to people and some people have a very high calling for it. Yes, it is. There's also a level of prestige to it. What word am I looking for? Not prestige, but that type of society.
Speaker 2:I mean it's you know. I mean it denotes that you've, you know, gotten to a level in your life. You can enjoy those sort of things, but we do it with everything we life.
Speaker 3:You can enjoy those sort of things, but we do with everything we do it with clothes, we do it with cars, we do it with everything. Handbags I mean. Yeah, it blows my mind.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean birkins are 30, you know, 30, 50 grand. So if you're gonna, you know, I mean you can spend your money how you want to spend it. But it does kind of kind of have that um, astuteness into it, or you know. But you don't have to have that to enjoy so.
Speaker 1:So a hundred point bottle of wine is not going to be cheap, but some of them are affordable to some.
Speaker 2:What does this bottle go?
Speaker 3:for that we're talking about. It's just under a thousand dollars.
Speaker 1:That's it. So we're drinking a bottle of wine that's under a thousand dollars.
Speaker 2:A hundred dollars is under a thousand dollars.
Speaker 1:So how close to a thousand dollars. We sell this for eight hundred dollars on our list, okay, and you're sharing it with us, which is amazing. You're sharing it with them because they're seeing it, and I would do nothing less. I would definitely do that with you as well, and I appreciate it. But these are the. We wouldn't be sitting here talking to one of the best guys when I started out saying that Zoe's has some of the best wines around. You heard his conversation. It probably is the. I can't think of another place that has a better list.
Speaker 2:No, it is. Yeah, I can say that. And I mean we had, you know, the cellars, for you know Burton Baldwin, we had the private cellars, so we got to see some cool wines come through on that. Like I said, I'm a product of being adjacent to it, not as fully involved in the. You know the Somme side of it.
Speaker 1:But I got to experience great wine.
Speaker 2:Well, I am very particular on what I drink, but even my daughter, who is 17 years old, is particular on wines already because of that fact, because it's more in your environment. If you're used to it, people around you enjoy it. You learn, but don't be ashamed of starting out and asking questions. I'm sure you get that all the time.
Speaker 3:That is something that is so true, chris. You have to not be afraid about wine. Wine can be so intimidating. So when I say you have to not be afraid about wine, wine can be so intimidating. So when I say you have to be humble. So I'm not sure if I can say the date today, but if I looked one year ago today and looked at myself in the mirror, I'd look at Mark Sauter going oh, last year you thought you knew a whole lot about wine. Today last year I looked at myself. I didn't know anything. Last year, nothing about wine there's always so much more to learn.
Speaker 3:So never be scared, never be ashamed, be humble, be excited. Be excited to learn about wine, and we try to get people to go outside the box and say, okay, you drink the same wine over and over again. Maybe try to drink. There's a thing called the Centennial Club, the 100 different grape varietals. If people come to the restaurant, no one wants to come to the restaurant and say here's a pen and paper, here's a test. Write down all the grape varietals you know. There's over 2,500 grape varietals on this earth and over 1,360 are used for wine production. So a Chardonnay, a Cabernet Sauvignon, a Merlot, those are grape varietals. Write down all the ones you know that you've had before People write down 15, 20, 25. Try to get to 100 in your lifetime, with yourself, with your friends, with spouses.
Speaker 1:That would be amazing. It would be so fucking happy. I'm kidding, I know what you're saying there's so much more out there.
Speaker 3:Try all these different crazy fun dishes that are out there and experience it. Wine can be so fun. It is scary but it shouldn't be and it shouldn't be daunting and it is a little bit, but just take it real. It's a grape, it comes from the ground.
Speaker 1:God's bounding to us People I notice more than anything. If you have a people get hit who are trying to learn about wine and want to go out and have a nice night and don't know about wine, they get hit with sticker shock. Bad, they don't understand what it is and they just get intimidated instantly and they go right for the one that says $35. That's not a problem, but when I go, here's a tip for all you people who go out there Find your budget, Don't be intimidated by the sommelier. That's why they're there. They design a wine list, they create a wine list and they put their wines in there and they're proud of every one of them.
Speaker 1:There's a reason why they put a $35 one. One of the reasons is to make sure you get an option. Number two is they want to show off what they've chosen to be the best $35 bottle of wine. It's all good. You're not going to offend or look stupid by anybody because, by design, these sommeliers put together their wine list in a proud way to make sure you do it. Are you trying to give away secrets here, Tony? No.
Speaker 3:Check it out. There's a secret to it. Yeah, I'm not going to give it away.
Speaker 1:So this is what I? This is my trick. This is my trick. I look at what I want to spend on wine that night. Sometimes I'm in a great spot. I want to spend 500. Some days I'm with people who deserve 500. Sometimes I just want to have a nice little wine and a 75 bottle, whatever it is.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so I'll go in and I'll say can I speak to the psalm or whatever? And they'll come to the table and I will say I'm going going to experiment tonight. I like this, this, this, this and this. I have a $300 budget. Blow me up, let me know what you got. See what you give me something different along those lines I like Nebbiolo, I like Gattinata, I like Sagrantino, I like all that stuff, and that's what I'm feeling tonight. But I'm going to allow you to bring me something. Here's $300 budget. Bring me what you got. If you say the same thing with a $50 budget or a $100 budget, you're going to enthuse the sommelier because now you're letting them be them, now you're letting them create and they created the menu. So don't feel bad if you want to spend that money and don't feel bad if you want to spend $1,000. You're going to get what the fuck you get.
Speaker 3:So one of the secrets is this was something in the older days but still holds true is the sommelier is going to have the second to least expensive wine per category is known in their favorites. So if it's a $35 bottle at the $40 bottle, it may be his favorite wine.
Speaker 3:So I mean, don't go to the very, very bottom, just go one notch up and you're gonna get a great bottle of wine and when you go to a sommelier or a wine steward or a wine director. If you have confidence in them and they feel that they have some confidence to talk to you as well, give them parameters or a budget. So I go to a table and say, hey, we're having an anniversary, it's our birthday. Give me a great bottle of wine. What's a great bottle of wine to you? What's a great bottle to me? It can be different.
Speaker 3:I'm not Bill Gates. I can't afford a thousand dollar bottle every day, so I'm not going to ever spend that kind of money on a bottle of wine. But what is your parameters? To say, hey, listen, give me a bottle of wine, keep it around $70 a bottle. When I go to the table, I bring three or four bottles. Once they give me a budget of $70. I don't bring one bottle at $70. I bring a $40, $50, $60 bottle. Put them on the table, because I'm not going to gouge somebody. I'm going to get the respect, sure, and I'm going to come back.
Speaker 2:That's smart.
Speaker 3:three or four of them and let them choose.
Speaker 1:And, with that being said, if I give you a $70 budget, I need that information.
Speaker 3:It's important.
Speaker 1:Sure, if you bring me a $70 bottle, if I tell you I got a $70 budget and you bring me a $40 bottle I like, there's more opportunity that I'm going to buy two of them now because, it's only $10, more than $70, and I just got two, so your sales and your percentages that you made your wine list on are all the same it works out great.
Speaker 3:If they're going to trust me, I've got to trust them and I've got to be able to give and deliver to them what they're looking for, and so I'm not going to hit anyone over the head. I think it's terrible to do that. You've got to be able to win these customers. You want them to come back and back and back. If you've won and done a customer, you'll never see them again. Sure down and filling up.
Speaker 1:And confidence comes with that. If they're confident in you, like you just said, if they trust you and believe in you, they're going to be more apt one day to come in there and try out. Okay, let's try and do a $100 bottle of wine. Most people think that's a lot of money and it is $100 a bottle for wine when they don't really understand it. To them that's their going out. That's $100.
Speaker 2:I think they're almost thinking they're taking a risk because they don't know if they like it or not. They're just betting their money that you're going to give them a good wine and they're used to going to the store and seeing it for getting a $20, $19 bottle.
Speaker 3:I always try to talk to the guests and get a little understanding or insight to their own personal palate, because when you say you like Nebula or you like San G's good information Any word that comes out of your mouth. I'm trying to ascertain as much information as I can in a very short period of time of what are you looking for, what kind of experience do you have? What do?
Speaker 3:you want to have and I don't want to bring you a Napa Valley Cabernet. If you want a Brunella, I'm not going to bring you. I want to bring you what you like and if your comfort zone is A, b you, but I want it to be in a range. That's going to be exciting for you and I want you coming back and being thrilled. I don't want you walking away and saying that was an okay meal. It's always our philosophy. My philosophy that I train my staff is we don't want to meet people's expectations.
Speaker 1:We want to see them every single time, every time and no matter how many times you try and say that, you can't say it enough, because it's in your heart. And what I say is that I have one thing I tell my staff, and especially my wine people, is this don't sell them the bottle of wine today or the table or experience today. Sell them the next one. Absolutely use today to sell them the next one. If you can nail today nicely and make them confident with you, they're going to come back and then they're going to do more and more and more, and that's what our job is. Our job is to make them come see the sequel. Okay, anybody who makes a movie, you can watch that movie one time, but you want to come up with a sequel. You know what I'm saying? And you've got to be able to sell the sequel and the sequel is they come back.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, I mean your staff are. You're their actors and their salesmen. So it's, did you love this? Oh my gosh, this is my other favorite thing.
Speaker 3:I can't wait till you come back and try it so it's always when you have an anniversary, a birthday or deployment become back from deployment. We appreciate that support for the military. We have cards on the table with your name on it and every single person in the restaurant signs that card and it's on the table. And so the other day I was talking to the table and they're on a little stand. So they're clipped on a little stand about 12 inches off the table, like that behind you. Yeah, exactly like that. I love those little touches. So I get to this table I said, by the way, if you open the card up, everybody on the staff is thankful. You came for your special occasion and we signed it. And the table turned to me and goes we have a stack of those at home. I said a stack of what I said, a stack of Zoe's cards.
Speaker 3:We come in for every birthday and every anniversary. We have a stack of them.
Speaker 2:That's amazing, I'm like.
Speaker 3:What kind of feedback is that that they enjoy coming?
Speaker 1:back. They appreciate it. Yeah, we have customers we know now on a first-name basis and they come in here royally and realistically, lost another word Loyally, loyally. And they just keep repetitively.
Speaker 2:Repetitively. They come back repetitively.
Speaker 1:So that happens and it's a great feeling knowing that what I'm trying to put out there is that that's exactly what I want. That's exactly what I want my food to do. You know, right now we're talking about wine, but as a chef, the wine works around my food. I get inspired, I'll drink some wine. My son will bring in some wine to me, we'll talk, we'll sit with the reps and stuff. I will drink the wine and the first thing I'm thinking about, yeah, that's good wine, but I'm thinking about what I'm going to cook with it. So it inspires me to cook. So good wine inspires me to cook. Usually, some people will drink, will eat good food and you have to pair the wine to it. Whenever we have a wine dinner here, I sit down with the reps and I go through all the wine. I sit with the reps, I sit with the SOM and I drink all the wine. And that's when I create my menu. I don't create the menu first and make them pair it.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:I drink their wine first and then I pair to that.
Speaker 3:That is so brilliant, tony, that so many people, so many chefs I say people, chefs, they want to be the star, they want to make this great dish, they want it to like. This is what I've created, the thing that the chef has to know and understand, and you do. The wine can't change, it's already made Right, it cannot change at all. Let it inspire you. You can change the food Correct. You can add more acid, you can add more fat, you can subtract a little salt.
Speaker 3:You can do those things, but the wine cannot change. It is what it is, yeah, and so to make that balance, that's beautiful. Very few chefs, I feel, can completely grasp that.
Speaker 1:Like this right here, and it's humble Right here. What I'm thinking on this would be a finisher, this would be a last course, and this would be a grill, but not a full grill. This would be a touch-off. Maybe this would be something lightly done in the sous vide and then it would be touched on the grill just to make that happen. If you go too much grill, you're going to lose this, but if you were just enough, grill this right here, smoke and fire Too much smoke too heavy would overpower this, it would overpower this. So, but you need a little bit of something to break. You know what I mean. So pull the fat out of it in the sous vide, whether it be lamb, you know something like that, a nice tenderloin of lamb or something. That's where I'm going with this, and then then I would literally sous vide that out with very light seasoning herbs and then I would just touch it on the grill at the end on service. Just enough to.
Speaker 1:There's not enough left to caramelize or get that crust, or get that really char, because you don't want too much of the char, but you want a little bit of flame to touch this and this would be fucking amazing. Totally agree with that.
Speaker 2:Now he's going to have to cook that for us. I'm ready.
Speaker 2:But that would be the reason we started this show and that's why I love having people like you on who know the nuances and the the elegance and we call it the sexy side to this business. We do it to create relationships and you're in it because the people you actually are serving you care about and they become your family. I mean the amount of close relationships that I had with my customers that I have literally carried through being at their houses at holidays and Christmas, watching their kids being born, them helping with my business, becoming people who supported through that is absolutely incredible. So I mean I'm glad you guys are still holding that level in this area, because that's it deserves it. This area deserves a lot more than what we get credit for.
Speaker 3:And then making people happy business and you know we create experiences and we get credit for. And then making people happy business and you know we create experiences. And you know I I have a, a friend of mine, who's a brain surgeon. He's so enamored with what I do and I'm like let's dial it back a little bit. You're saving people's lives. I'm just trying to put a happy smile on your face. I want you to experience, well, those happy experiences, what we live for, and those are things that carry us on and and, and that's what brings people back. I mean to have that experience that they just want to tell all their friends about. And hey, I went to the, I went to luchi last night and I had this incredible meal and the service. Everything flowed perfectly and I'm like I can't wait to go back. I mean that's what we work hard for our money for sure, absolutely 100 absolutely so.
Speaker 1:A couple last things. The most sought after level to me you would know much better, but to me the most sought-after level of the Court of Masters is level two. That's the one people go for and kind of most people end up stopping and being comfortable with. That's the certification. What are your tips? Give us three tips of that. You got the blind tasting, you got the theory and you got the service. So what are your few tips on that?
Speaker 3:So actually level two, which is called certification, where you actually become a certified sommelier. I am very instrumental in making that level happen. I was with the founder of the Quartermaster Sommelier, brian Julian, at the Sommelier Summit many years ago out in Napa Valley and there was level one intro, and then there was advanced and there was master diploma and there was no level two. And advance is you. Level two is get off the crazy train. So you have level three. You've got to be crazy, you've got to dedicate your life. It's absolutely insane. So level one, level two and level three is like way up there. So I helped develop level two, uh, by inspiration, saying there has to be something between level one and advanced, uh, which is certification, and so, um, it's very, very important. So you can call yourself a sommelier once you're certified sommelier, once you have that level. No one can dispute that.
Speaker 3:And so for level two, you have to learn blind tasting service and theory. Theory is something you can put. I can't teach someone to put your nose in a book and learn and study everything about the world of wine. Service is something that has to be trained by a mentor to show you how to be done in a fine dining restaurant, a Michelin three star, a five diamond American restaurant, that is something, service wise, that they teach you at. And then the blind tasting you have to be able to expose yourself to the varietals. At level two you're only responsible for around 24 to 28 different grape varietals Old World and New World. So Sangiovese in the Old World, sangiovese in the New World, so you don't have but about 40, 50 wines that you have to learn inside out in blind tasting.
Speaker 3:At level three, yeah, 1,368 holders of ballgame. But so getting comfortable with core varietals, getting comfortable with fine dining, service and those things, you need to either study or have a mentor to help you, guide you, and that's very important. So in this program there's no school to go to, it's self-guided. No one's going to say here's a syllabus, go do it. You have to sit there and learn. You have to be excited about what that can bring to your table. But level two is a great place to be.
Speaker 1:So if you're going to go to level two basically to sum it all up you have tasting, blind tasting you have to go through that. That's probably the for most people, that would be the hardest. The service part of it is really based off of experience.
Speaker 2:If you have experience you can get that.
Speaker 3:Service is very easy, service is easy.
Speaker 1:You should have the service. If you're going for level two, you should already have service. You should have that. But they? You should have the service. If you're going for level two, you should already have service. You should have that.
Speaker 3:But they want a certain thing for service. So I can't tell you, you know, for service. You're not going to learn it automatically, unless you have someone to show you or direct you. But once you have me directed, you never forget it. So if you walk into a restaurant and I say to you, tony, touch every third table with your left hand, then wave goodbye to me. Anybody can do that. It's learned process. What do they want in fine dining? And so when you approach the table, you, the bottle, never touches the glass. When you pour it, uh, you present the cork to the guest. That goes on a coaster. You ask the guest when you leave the table would you like to keep the cork, or shall I for a special memento, uh, or shall I take it with me? These are simple little things, that's easy.
Speaker 1:So once you learn service, anybody can do it and that's what I'm getting at, that's what I'm trying to pull out of you. Is that right there, those little tips of what people can look forward to? What can they expect out of these exams? What can they expect out of this test? So?
Speaker 3:today's knowledge, today's availability. With technology, youtube, you can YouTube that information, and so in the old day you couldn't do any of that without someone showing you physically. Now you can YouTube Certification sommelier quarterback. Sommelier level two service exam.
Speaker 1:So give us a little tip real quick on the theory part of it, because that's the one that a lot of people don't understand exactly what's going to be on there.
Speaker 3:So theory is, you know, theory is level one, pushing up even higher. So they want you to know the core thing. So one of the test questions and I've, I've helped uh administer the test many times for level two, uh, I don't grade it, but I help administer the test at the restaurant, um, and so they might do very simply, they, they may name eight wines and you just have to connect it to a region. So they'll do Côte d'Estrindale. Well, if you're in the industry, you should know that's a super second growth Bordeaux, and it's from Bordeaux, france. Then they put Chateau Bo-Castel. Well, because it's a chateau. You might think that it's from Bordeaux, but it's from the Rhone Valley. Then I put Sasakaya.
Speaker 3:Well, if you're in the industry and you're a level two SOM, if you don't know where Sasakaya comes from, you shouldn't be in this business. It's one of the greatest supertussies ever made. It's not the greatest, so it's the best of the best. You shouldn't be a sommelier if you don't know the best of the best. If someone says that's a Rolls Royce out there, have you ever heard that before? For Rolls-Royce, yeah, for Rolls-Royce is a decent car, it's a luxury car. So you have to know the best of the best that's across the board. So to be able to be at a table and someone says to me I brought a bottle of Chateau Fille Rothschild in 1990. Is that a good vintage?
Speaker 1:Yeah, chateau Fille Rothschild is a first growth, which some similarities have. That's the type of thing you kind of stop and take your breath and go. What did you just say?
Speaker 2:is here.
Speaker 1:You know it's one of them things. You should know that stuff.
Speaker 3:You should know that stuff. Yeah, and so that's what a certified sommelier should be able to walk to a table and someone say I can't tell you, I know every winery in the world. I don't. I taste 50 different thousand wines a year, 137 different wines a day, and I don't know it all. I'm never going to know it all. But if you say to me, hey, I had a bottle of Mimic de More, or I had a bottle of Harlan Estate, just Screamin' Eagle, my friend brought me a bottle of Dominus over. Oh yeah, I know Dominus. First of all he used wines. Philippe Melk was the original winemaker Started off in, you know, 1982. Know some of those things at a higher level, but this is a never heard of Dominus.
Speaker 1:You should also know that if they can't afford a Dominus and they've heard about Dominus you can bring them down to Napa, nook and everything else. It's still fucking delicious and those are the things that people should know at that level, awesome, listen. Like I said, we can talk about this all damn day.
Speaker 3:This is one of them conversations that we're nerding out on big time. I love listening to it.
Speaker 1:But at some point in time we do got to cut it short, and I think that's about now, right, because if not, we're going to continue going.
Speaker 2:We'll keep going, yeah, so we try and set a time limit to keep ourselves in check.
Speaker 1:Sure, but let me tell you this this definitely needs a sequel. We need to get back to this and definitely have you back on so coming soon we need to get back to this, and I also think that we need to go have some wine at Zoe's.
Speaker 2:Well, I told him I'm overdue to be there.
Speaker 1:So we will make a point. I'm thinking about bringing a camera in there and doing some stuff with them.
Speaker 2:We'll bring a camera in and we'll do a fun little short in there and I can harass your bar staff a little bit.
Speaker 1:Sure, that would be fun too, but you're talking bar. I know, Come on go for it.
Speaker 2:He didn't even crack that yet he didn't even crack it.
Speaker 1:So let's be our closer Kristen back to you.
Speaker 2:Back to me Well, I love our, so did you just kind of, what made you bring this today? Because we knew we were going to talk about wine. Why did you bring this?
Speaker 3:Well, your show. You guys do a lot of tequila and I appreciate that. I'm just not a huge tequila guy. So if I'm not drinking wine, I drink a little bourbon, and if you're going to have bourbon, you might as well have some Pappy.
Speaker 2:Might as well. I mean, you know why not? If you're going to go, go all the way.
Speaker 1:So where are you at, mostly in your heart? 10, 12, 20, 25? Where are you at? I am a 20 and a 15 12's fantastic too, but that's like the, that seems like the introductory pappy.
Speaker 3:Well, 10 and 12s are, but they're all great. I got to have a wonderful experience with Julian Van Winkle. I was with 21 Psalms and Chefs and we went to. It was a TV show called Mind of a Chef, a PBS show. Anthony Bourdain was season one, chef Eddie Lee was season two.
Speaker 3:So we went out and we toured Buffalo Trace with Julian Van Winkle, then we had lunch with him and that night we had dinner at Chef Eddie Lee's restaurant and we did a wine dinner with Colgan Vineyards and Julian Van Winkle sitting next to me and his wife Sissy sitting across from me and he's asking why are they pairing the Syrah with this? This, uh, this, uh, black pepper stuffed, uh, quail? I'm like, well, I'm explaining well. Well, syrah has black pepper flavors, a little bacon, saddle, leather, sure, and I'm like, wow, I'm teaching Julian Van Winkle about wine. It was crazy, crazy experience for me, um, and so I just always been a big fan of Pappy and it's great.
Speaker 1:I don't know if you could teach him about whiskey, though, or bourbon.
Speaker 2:Yeah, he's.
Speaker 3:I wouldn't want to begin to try.
Speaker 2:I know Well this is.
Speaker 3:I'll share with you what we're doing today.
Speaker 2:A very special way to end this episode, so I truly appreciate it. So we'll do that. Oh yeah, yeah, that is very good. A little Kentucky hug right there on the chest, a little bit of love At the end of the episode. So from wine yeah, wine to whiskey 100 point wine pappy.
Speaker 1:Life is beautiful, Van Winkle, rather, it's fucking delicious right.
Speaker 2:I know you're just like they're all looking. We're like hold on, can you wrap?
Speaker 1:this, so we can taste that shit.
Speaker 2:That's what's going on right now, but okay. So yeah, quick shout out for the restaurants where everybody can find you guys so Zoe's Steak and Seafood Restaurant.
Speaker 3:We're on 19th Street in Virginia Beach, next to the convention center, a small restaurant. We take reservations up to two years in advance, and so not that you can't walk in there on a Saturday and get a table, but I would Good luck.
Speaker 1:I would not recommend that I try it.
Speaker 3:Yeah, one time I got kicked out, you got kicked out, I had to call you back and tell them I'm glad to be back here.
Speaker 1:I was like I just wanted to stay and get the bar. I left work early for this, but I didn't want to cause no trouble. I'm not that guy, I'm cool, that was a good time. That was a great time. One last thing I want to hit. We're getting ready to sign out. Everybody listen, if you don't know what you want to buy and you're by yourself, you're sitting at a bar half bottles. Will you please bring back the half bottle? Great half bottle program here.
Speaker 1:Yes, I'm working on my half bottle program too. Half bottles, about two and a half glasses, it's all you need. Spend the money on yourself. Don't be afraid of buying the whole bottle. Half bottles he's got them, I got them. Love the half bottles. Keep on going. Yeah, half bottles, watch those half bottles.
Speaker 2:I love it. I'm a half bottle freak. I do love a half bottle when a winery makes half bottles.
Speaker 1:I fucking love it, man, they get it, we're going to end it on that, because we're
Speaker 3:going to keep going.
Speaker 2:Thank you so much, guys. Ciao for now. All right, ciao for now. Ciao.
